MOTOR CAPACITOR RATINGS

I just came across 2 1.5 HP induction motors- they seem in fine shape except all the capacitors are missing- Is there any formula for determining the size necessary for the start and run side?

They must have centrifugal switches . You can start with a series cap on the start winding and if your rich and can afford the parallel cap on the run winding ( it improves power factor only , it is not abs needed ).
an 8 amp CSR 117vac motor maybe needs a ..... shit i forgot , why not compare another similar . Maybe its around 10 Mikes ? starting . The bigger it is , the more torque .
BTW Does HF still use PSC motors on the $40 drill press ? I returned mine years ago , it had no power at all ! All tool motors must have CSR motors , PSC wont work .
JimInsolo wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

  Quoted Text Here  
    Are you sure that they even *need* capacitors? If they are three phase motors, they don't need them -- just three phase power.
    For single phase motors, some (most) will only need a starting capacitor, but there are some which need both a start and a run cap. Check out the motor's nameplate. They often specify the size of capacitor needed as part of the data. (It will be in uFd or MFd -- the same units, but different age of motor.)
    And without that -- the motor's voltage will also be important, as the needed capacitor changes with voltage -- and some dual-voltage motors use the same cap for either voltage, by a wiring trick which applies the same voltage to the start winding and cap either way.
    Good Luck,         DoN.

These are single phase motors- unfortunately the nameplate does not give any info on the caps, but there were definitely 2, as the metal cans and wires are there.
| Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
  Quoted Text Here  

  Quoted Text Here  
    O.K. Then either a cap-start cap-run motor, or a way to get more capacitance than a single cap would offer.
    Good Luck,         DoN.

I suspect that the manufacturer may have used two start capacitors (in parallel to attain the high value required for a 1.5 HP single phase motor). If the two cover cans are the same size, this would lead me to believe this is true. As compressor-duty rated motors are usually marked as such, leaving information out of the original post isn't very likely to result in conclusive replies. Compressor-duty rated motors generally have start and run caps, and the run cap is typically much larger in physical size (explained earlier).
The best source of info about motors would be the manufacturer.
A newsgroup may be the second best source, when the poster includes all of the info present on the motor's data plate (and many RCMers have seen/used lots of motors).
It seems that most posts (motors or other equipment) don't include all of the pertinent info, and a lot of speculation follows, until several days later, when the OP gets around to posting the "rest of the story", in a Paul Harvey sort-of way. I think of these posts as being PHPs.. PaulHarveyPosts.
If the OP can determine if the motors have centrifugal switches, then there is little point in exploring the possibility of whether they're three phase motors (which I've already discounted).
WB metalworking projects http://www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html ...........
DoN. Nichols wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

Like i said , if they have a run cap , they are expensive motors .
If you remove a run cap , you only pay more for electricity
and get less torque at max load and it will "dropout " sooner .
In this
Commercial.crafts.metalworking NG
we all have house wired 3 phase so we use 3 PH motors on all our machine tools ..
_______________________________________________________________
DoN. Nichols wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

Single phase (including switched start/run winding, split phase, capacitor start or non-capacitor) induction motors don't need start capacitors to put the motors into operation. This is to mean that in some applications, a motor wouldn't need the start capacitor to run the motor.
A call or visit to a motor shop might provide you the values of the original capacitors.
The start capacitor will increase the motor's starting torque, where a motor has a load connected to it at the time of startup. Many single phase, split phase induction motors operate for years without start capacitors, when they are used for application where no load is applied at startup. A typical switched start/run motor without a start capacitor, can be modified to increase the starting torque, by adding a start capacitor to the proper internal terminals/connectors.
When I asked about sizing motor start capacitor values at my local motor shop, and they said that the rule of thumb is 500 microfarad per horsepower. Since then, I've noticed that motor manufacturers seem to follow that rule, as the start capacitors in motors that I've serviced have always had capacitor ratings that follow the 500uF/HP rule.
Motor starting capacitors are AC dry types, and rated for a higher AC voltage than the motors windings will apply to the capacitor. Starting capacitors are only capable of having the voltage applied to them for brief durations (the short interval that the motor gets up to run winding switching speed).
Start and run capacitors have different characteristics. Start caps are compact for their value (typically over 100uF), compared to run caps, which are large but have lower values (typically less than 50uF).
Single phase motors that utilize both start and run capacitors (such as air compressor-duty rated motors) will also have run capacitors. The run capacitors are a small value (about 10 microfarad), physically larger AC oil types, and are capable of sustained voltage application. Books on motor theory explain that run capacitors will increase the motor's run torque.
WB metalworking projects http://www.kwagmire.com/metal_proj.html ...........
JimInsolo wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

On 29 Oct 2006 05:21:10 -0800, "Wild Bill"
  Quoted Text Here  
For a single phase 220V 60 Hz 1.5 HP capacitor start and run motor, 45 to 50uF is typical for the run capacitor. Start capacitor is not critical - it depends how much starting torque you need. 3 times the run capacitance is usually sufficient, up to twice as much if you need more torque.
Because the market for largish single phase machines is fairly small, some of these "single phase" capacitor start and run machines actually use standard symmetrical 3 phase windings with added capacitors and starting switch for single phase operation.
Jim

Wild Bill and Jim,
Thanks for some very informative info- Jim is there a way to check if indeed these motors are actually wired for 3 phase?
wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
determining

  Quoted Text Here  
If the resistance of the separate (disconnected) windings between each line and the capacitor and between the two lines are the same, then it will almost certainly be a three phase motor.
Mark Rand RTFM

On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 15:39:19 GMT, "JimInsolo"
  Quoted Text Here  
snip>
Depends on how many wires you can get at. A 3 phase machine will have three equal windings that can be connected in star or delta - any pair of wires will measure equal resistance.
A true capacitor start/run machine will normally have only two windings and although one end may be commoned to give three leadouts it will not measure equal resistance between any pair.
Jim

JimInsolo wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
There are several posts with good information . . . but lets start with the basics. Let's assume Cap-start/Car-run. First off, you need to know which cap went in which can. Mixing up two wires will let the smoke out.
The basic circuit consists of two "sets" of windings, the "run winds" (which carry the bulk of the current), and the "start (or auxiliary) winding. " The leads at the terminal board or box usually will have a connection diagram for the end-user, but the internal wiring has to be figured out. Checking with an ohm meter can be confusing, as the motor is stationary, ie. the start switch is closed until the motor comes up to ~75% running speed. Continuity through the start switch can make the cap leads difficult to sort out. It is often simpler to remove the "opposite drive-end" endbell (bearing housing) in order to trace the wiring.
Single phase motors are often provided in a dual volage configuration. The run windings are divided in half, and how they are connected to each other determines the voltage the motor will run on. If the two halves are connected in series (current has to pass through one half and then the other), the motor will run on the higher voltage (usually 230V). If, on the other hand, the two halves are connected in parallel (current can pass equally through either winding), the motor will run on the lower voltage (typically 115V).
Series: ---------1------------2-3-----------4-------- 230V 115 115
Run winds only 1------------2 / 115 \ Parallel -------L N--------- 115V \ 115 / 3---------------4
Dual voltage motors usually have the start (or aux) winding rated for the lower of the two voltages. The start wind is connected in parallel with one half of the run winding, therefore it always sees the lower voltage. If the motor were connected for high voltage, one end of the start wind with it's caps and start switch would be connected to the mid-point of the run windings.
Run wind Run wind --------1-------------------------2-3--------------------------4--- ------ 230V 115 \ 115 / 8---------------- s--l(----5 Start circuit
The purpose of the capacitors is to shift the phasing of the A/C power feeding the start winds. The windings are laid into the stator of the motor with the centers of the coils half-way inbetween the coils of the run windings. On a split-phase motor (start switch, but no caps), the start winds have MANY more turns of much smaller wire than the run winds. Because the current has so much further to go through a smaller conductor, it takes longer for the magnetic field to build to full strength. There is a real limit to how much torque these types can have on start, as increasing the current in the start winding by reducing the length of the wire and/or it's resistance (larger wire) allows the magnetic field to build almost as quickly as that in the run windings. If they peak at the same time, there is NO start torque, the motor just hums or growls instead of accelerating.
Capacitors "slow down" the current, without limiting it to the same extent. They have to be "filled" with electrons before they will allow any to pass through. They act like a balloon or air compressor tank, absorbing and releasing pressure. This allows the engineer to design his start wind with fewer turns of larger wire to carry more current, thereby increasing the torque available from the start winds. The proper value of start cap will maximize the current flow in the start windings ~90 degrees behind the run winds. This amount of phase shifting releases tremendous energy into the auxiliary windings, far exceeding the continuous current rating of the winding. Start caps have high mfd ratings, but are intended for intermittant duty only, or they will blow up. The start switch is wired in series with the start winds and start caps. It opens at ~75% of full load speed, cutting current through the start caps.
------------1----------------------------2-3-------------------------- 4---------- \ / 8----------- -7--s--l(---5 s = switch ---l(--- = start capacitor
This is a cap start motor. Once it is up to speed, the start winds don't do diddly-squat until it has to start the next time. It didn't take designers to long to figure out that if they put another, smaller, continuous duty capacitor across the windings, then those windings could be used while the motor was running as well. The phase shift was less, but the current was manageable as well.
------------1---------------------------2-3--------------------------- 4---------- \ / 8----------- -7--l(--s---5
\ /
7---ll---5
s = switch ---l(--- = start capacitor ---ll--- = run capacitor These symbols both refer to capacitors, using different ones just makes the diagram easier to figure out. The caps are both non-polarized (A/C), but the run cap has a higher voltage rating.
Not only is the entire winding working all the time, but the run winds and aux winds are working in conjunction with each other, (You just doubled the "number of cylinders" of your "engine", so to speak).
That analogy also serves to demonstrate the importance of the correct value of capacitor to match the windings. If the cap is wrong, the "timing" will be off. The motor will be unable to develop it's full torque, as the aux winding wil "fire" at the wrong time. If you have make and model # (or Catalog #), any motor shop should be able to get the proper values from the manufacturer, assuming they are still in business. The rough figure of 500 mfd/hp is perhaps on the high side for cap-start-cap run, especially if the motor is dual voltage. I'd suggest that you post the particulars of the motors taken off the nameplates, and see if any one can get you definate answers.
Dave D.

Dave, Wow- that was a really informative explanation- I learned something new, as I always thought the start winding simply shut off once the motor came up to speed. Some of the other guys got a bit off the original question and started talking about 3 phase etc., but your explanation was right to the point- I once had a start/run induction motor that every now and then would buzz loudly and break the breaker- no one could tell me the problem- from your post, I am thinking it had a weak or failing start capacitor which was getting the windings out of phase- Thanks again Jim
  Quoted Text Here  
determining
which
winding.
ie.
sort
(bearing
The
connected
hand,
the
one
the
windings.
4---
8----------------
motor
winds
it's
quickly
start
extent.
intermittant
the

Jim;
An intermittant "hummer" is much more likely to be due to a "sticky" or "wobbley" centrifugal mechanism, and/or a mis-adjusted start switch. If the switch dues not close when the motor stops, then there will be no current in the auxiliary winding at the next start-up ( or not enough phase shift in the case of a cap-start/car-run motor). If the switch closes the next times, the motor will start then.
Dave D.
JimInsolo wrote: I once had a start/run induction motor that every now and then would
  Quoted Text Here  

  Quoted Text Here  
The main part of this post is OK but it's gone slighly adrift in the simplified description of the start winding operation.
In split phase start motors the start winding is wound with slighly fewer turns of much finer wire than the main winding. This gives it a little lower inductance than the main winding but much higher resistance. The phase angle of the currents in the windings is controlled by this inductance to resistance ratio and it is this difference in ratio that causes the start winding current phase angle to lead that of the main winding. Unfortunately the phase difference is much less than the ideal 90 deg. This reduces the available starting torque so this type of motor has high starting current and poor starting torque.
In a capacitor start motor the effect of the capacitance is to partially cancel the effect of the winding inductance so that the change in effective inductance to resistance ratio (which gives greater phase difference) can be achieved without the power loss and inefficiency of a high resistance start winding. Because of this the capacitor start winding is typically wound with only slightly finer wire with and with about the same or greater number of turns than the main winding.
This arrangement gets closer to the ideal 90 deg shift without the heavy losses of the split phase system so it achieves both higher starting torque AND lower starting current.
Jim

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  
20 to 30 degrees. This reduces the available starting torque so this
  Quoted Text Here  
Ok, you made me dig out my books. You are absolutely right, I explained it exactly backwards. I also made a mistaken assumption that a split-phase motor would have even more turns in the auxiliary than a cap-start. I guess I should read a bit more. . . more often.The book I go to for single phase is Veinott's FHP Electric Motors, and perhaps this is just a case of terminology changing over time, but the term used in my book is "reactance". Inductance was reserved for the current in the rotor, reactance being the counter EMF in the winding to which the voltage is applied DUE to the current being induced in the secondary (or rotor, in this instance) Because of this the capacitor start
  Quoted Text Here  
I'll second THATas a statement by itself, I was wrong on the split-phase. I don't rewind furnace fan or above-ground pool pump motors, so the winding data wasn't something I gave much thought to.
Question for you. . . what type of cap-run motor has two sets of identical windings displaced 90 mechanical degrees apart, and what are they used for. Hint? Very limited duty cycle.
Humble Regards;
Dave D.

On Fri, 03 Nov 2006 03:24:18 GMT, "Dave D. via CraftKB.com"
snip
  Quoted Text Here  
Two identical sets of windings (i.e 2 pairs of leadout wires) 90 deg apart is a true 2 phase wind and can be driven as such from a 2 phase supply. It also performs pretty well as a capacitor run motor but needs a largish capacitor.
It's commonplace in aircraft and military small servo systems. Most industrial/domestic machines use more turns of a bit finer wire in the capacitor phase because this permits the use of a smaller value capacitor.
Not sure if I've correctly understood your question. If you mean 2 separate sets of 0deg&90deg windings (i.e.4 pairs of leadout wires) it's either a dual voltage motor or a very strange beast indeed. One possibility is a 2 speed pole changing machine. The starting torque of the low speed mode would be much better than the high speed mode which might be a useful attribute.
Jim

Jim
Sorry, my verbal description was not perfectly clear. Conventional four- pole series connection in both starts and runs, four leads out possible, but more usually found with three leads (internally connected common lead). The only unusual part is that the starts and runs have the exact same turns and wire size. The capacitor is connected across the leads which show the highest resistance ( the common lead being the "center-tap"). Voltage is applied to the common lead and either one of the other leads, depending on desired direction. Typical duty cycle is 20%. (2min. in 10min. intermittant) The only application I have seen them put in is actuators. Handicap chair lifts, remote valve actuators, and the strangest one was a motor for vertical blinds, of all things.
Fairly good torque for motors of their size, instant reversing with low in- rush, but low in effieciency (sp).
Dave D. I guess we are getting a little off-topic for this group?
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:
  Quoted Text Here  

On Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:53:30 GMT, "Dave D. via CraftKB.com"
  Quoted Text Here  
You have a 2 phase motor of the first type with two identical windings 90 deg apart. It is optimised for easy reversing and good starting torque ("good" means a bit better than lousy!). The penalty is that it needs a large value run capacitor.
Looking at it drawn with the windings connected to form a Vee, with the capacitor bridging the top open ends of the Vee. Supply to Vee base and LH top gives forward rotation. LH Vee is the main winding, RH Vee is the capacitor phase.
Moving supply high from LH Vee to RH Vee gives mirror image operation. The motor reverses. The RH Vee is now the main winding and the LH Vee is the capacitor phase.
Jim