Outgrown Phase Converters --> 80 KW Cat Genset?

Many folks may not know it..but Taig Lathes etc were as of about 5 yrs ago, made out in the middle of the desert with all the machines being run off a gen set. I dont know if its changed or not since I installed a machine there.

You are going to have to do a cost analyisis to see if it will be cheaper to have the power company bring in new service, over a two year period, against the base cost and recurring costs over that same period of fuel and maint of that genset.

The cost of the genset itself will be one of the smaller factors.

As to wether or not you can do it..yes you can indeed. And it works well.

Gunner

"She's (my daughter) already dating a sex offender. Better that than a republican fundie neocon fascist." FF, (alt.machines.cnc)

Suggest add a second service, this time have the utility put in a 75 kva transformer and feed another pair of 200A panels through a ct. meter.

Private fossil fuel generators are very costly to operate as compared to electric utility rates anyplace in the USA.......

First thing you need to do is call your local electric company and explain the situation.

Strange this subject should come up. I read an article somewhere in the last few days that claimed that much of the explosion in China's demand for oil (and part of the reason for high US pump prices) is just this, factories who can't get sufficient utilities from the existing infrastructure and so "roll their own" in an inefficient manner. China's eventual response will be to add more unfiltered coal plants, which will also have worldwide implications.

Vaughn

I'm sure you have contacted the utility and found out how much it'll cost for three phase to be run to your shop. That genset new would be pretty expensive. And pretty expensive to run. A used one may not deliver reliable power. I don't know how sensitive the Haas machine is to frequency deviations but you had better compare the specs of the genset to what the Haas machine requires. ERS

You know, since he's in the middle of a field a windmill or two may be practical. The windmill + the existing power feed could probably keep the shop going. Easy to scale up in the future. Never have to buy fuel. Lower maintenance too. And depending on his location any time the windmill produces surplus electricity the electricity grid is legally required to buy it back. Could even cause them to run a three-phase line without charging the shop if he's lucky. Worth investigating.

Obviously, get a quote for better service from the power comany, and then compare that against the _full_ costs of the diesel unit - fuel, maintenance, etc. I'm heading this route on a much smaller scale becasue the cost of getting service and price of power once connected is high enough to make sense of it, but don't be fooled into considering the cost of fuel alone as the cost of operation.

You are also into a large enough size generator that you may want to look at "microturbines" as an option to see if the economics work out better (godawful expensive to buy, but less maintenence, and quieter to run).

If your cornfield gets cold in the winter, it will be well worth your time and effort to work out some heat recovery, so that the fuel you are burning to make electricity is also providing you with heat, rather than wasting that heat and then paying for another source of heat.

Talk to cat's tech support. Tell them what your load will be, not just the KVA. Make sure they are including filters to keep equipment noise from getting back into the generator controls. I've seen a SCR-type rectifier feed back into a 30 KW diesel genset and drive it CRAZY. Don't forget to consider the rated life of the equipment plus downtime for maint. in your cost figures. Somehow I suspect a second feed will be cheaper; oil prices aren't going to get much cheaper in the next couple of years.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 09:57:16 -0500, "B.B." vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

As far as I can tell, large windmill gens are about a dollar a watt to build. I don't know if smaller ones are better or worse, but an 80KVA windmill is quite a serious piece of gear.

***************************************************** I have decided that I should not be offended by anybody's behaviour but my own......the theory's good, anyway.

Gents,

Thanks for all the tips. They are appreciated. Keith, thanks much for the heads up on possible SCR motor control hash feeding back and upsetting the gen-sets controller, we will get a need to get a handle on that for sure.

We have analyized and reanalyized this scenario, untill we are blue in the face. The bottom line is the lowest we can get the rural power authority down to is around $20K, not counting the bussbar distribution within our building. We have met with them over 6 times trying every possible motivator we can think of. The reality is they have to run cable a long, long way to service us, and there is no near term potential for other users on our new leg. The problem is complicated by a potential move within a year if our growth keeps at its present rate. That sunk cost would be lost, if we can't take it with us. Also the tax treatment of the two installations differ too.

$20K isn't bad. Consider that in 1985, the total operating cost of a diesel genset of the size you're considering worked out to $0.45 per kWh. That figure includes full amortization of the purchase cost, fuel, maintenance, etc. Now for sure that figure is higher now with the current run up of fuel prices.

I don't know what you're paying for utility power, but my EMC charges me $0.08 per kWh (the EMC owns a Nuke so it is fairly immune to fuel prices). The difference can very quickly cover the $20K cost of having the service installed. (Break even in 675 running hours.) Also consider that when you do move, having 3 ph already at the present location will make it easier to sell as industrial property.

Gary

Consider making the move (to someplace with access to better power service, ideally) sooner, or putting off the new machining center until after the move (or getting the place to move into and starting by putting the new machining center in there, then move the rest of your stuff).

If you are going to buy a genset, make it a good one. Check with the Caterpillar dealer about exactly what you are going to be running, but if the lathe is 25 HP you might need 100 HP worth of genset to handle the starting and plugging surges without stalling or big dips and surges. And you can't go wrong getting one size bigger.

Get it trailer mounted - 2 or 3 axle A-tongue with a reversible pintle/2-5/8" ball coupler & variable height setup (so it can be towed behind almost anything), with a decent sized fuel tank on the trailer, the block heaters and all the gear needed for standby operation, and space in lockable 'gear boxes' on three sides and the tongue.

As you need them (or find great deals) you can start collecting the support gear - a few coils of big Welding Cable and Cam-lock pin connectors, a distribution breaker panel to get 50A 120/240 feeds, a few 50A 'spider boxes', a pile of assorted extension cords and twistlock adapters...

Because after it has spent the next year or two as a 'peak power/prime power' source for your current shop out in the boonies, it can still be useful for many more years as a standby or temporary power generator - when you will need it all set up to be highly portable in a hurry, because it may be your shop's power that fails, or a friends.

Or just rent it out as needed - friends relatives and non-profits (BPOE, Moose, VFW, Jaycees, etc.) get it cheaper, but not free. You still have to cover costs...

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