Source for small precision shafting

I agree..."sanctimonious prick" fits better.

Gunner

Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"

"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:sEdTd.3851$NT2.275 @fe09.lga:

Tsugami.

Dan

I fully understand your apprehension, and , had my experiences come at the hands of 304 or 316, I would not touch any stainless unnecessarily either, if it weren't for knowing better.

The real benefit of machining 303 S, 303 Se, and 416, is that you rarely, if ever, suffer problems with surface tearing, making working to close tolerance much easier. They will also respond to very light cuts, unlike mild steel. If you'd like to try any of them and enjoy quite good success, I'd suggest positive rake unless you're taking some serious roughing cuts with carbide inserts, at which time you'd have better luck with negative rake tooling. Once you're removed the majority of the material, be certain to get back to positive rake. I always lube with sulfur based oil to prevent any buildup on the tool tip, especially if I'm running HSS, which works fine, too, just slower. In either case, surface finish is improved by the oil. Regardless of your tool of choice, positive rake is quite important to good finish work in stainless. It works wonders even in the ugly grades, 304 and 316.

Regards corrosion resistance, unless you're parts would be subjected to a particularly bad chemical environment, I'm not convinced you need worry. Even not passivating, with exposure to wet conditions, the worst you're likely to experience is some very minor surface rusting, and that may not occur.

Aside from 416 heat treated, these alloys do not make great bearing surfaces because they're quite soft and readily gall.

One other alloy I highly recommend, although it does take a little experience to master, is 17-4 PH. It cuts well (when you understand how) and, being precipitation hardening, is very easy for the home shop type to heat treat. It has excellent corrosion resistance and tensile strength. Because it heat treats at relatively low temperatures, one experiences little distortion and no scaling, with the added benefit of being able to machine relatively close tolerance work before heat treat, assuming you allow for the minor shrinkage that occurs in heat treat.

Give it a go , Ed. I think you'll like what you discover.

Harold

I thought that might be it. We've probably run into each other at an IMTS or another show over the years.

Right out the window.

-- Ed Huntress

I have used 416 to make some parts for one of my model engines. IMO, it machines easier than drill rod.

I tend to use a lot of drill rod because it is easy to get; I'm beginning to think that it might be worth it to pay a extra for 12L14 just to make my life easier.

chuck

"Robin S." wrote

Exactly my point. If you already knew Harold was touchy about his experience, why bait him with comments about Cliff? Why not use his knowledge and give him some of the respect he deserves for a lifetime of learning his trade? Giving him respect costs you nothing, and pleases him. What is the point of behaving as you did if it only causes dissent? It seems that your ego is causing more problems than Harold's....

I am not close friends with Harold, but we are the same age, and I greatly respect his experience and accomplishments even though he took a different path than I. I have visited him at his home, and he has been to my place. Anyone that reads the newsgroup knows that Harold has strong opinions and a short fuse (sometimes!). Why not be a little more diplomatic in your approach to the "old timers"? It would benefit you greatly.

Mark

I agree with your comments. I would add the respect has to flow both ways though.

Jim

"Ed Huntress" wrote in news:bRjTd.19995$ snipped-for-privacy@fe08.lga:

I'm pretty sure we've met. I used to do the press conferences in the morning before the show started. We haven't done those in a while, but I'm sure we'll start again now that we've hired a marketing guy.

Dan

Jim, I'm at a loss to understand your position. My comments that started this ugly exchange are copied here:

"Sorry, Robin. You have been misinformed. A properly set up centerless will yield what is, for all practical purposes, dead round parts. Only when they are run *on center* do they not. In fact, they are capable of very close work, with outstanding repeatability."

If you can point out to me where I was not paying due respect to another, I'd be grateful. I felt my answer to Robin was more than adequate to dispel the notion that parts can't come out round, that the machine was not suited to the application. I simply stated facts, with no personal attack of any kind. It might not hurt for you to go back and read how that mess got started. If you still feel I'm the one that is responsible, please explain it to me.

Harold

(quote one)

I did see that comment. I also saw the later one:

(quote two) "That smart assed punk kid needs to be taught some respect. I've spent more hours running a centerless than that smart mouthed little bastard has been in the shop. It's plain damned amazing how someone can work in the trade for a couple years and get so knowledgeable that they know all about things they've never touched. "

Granted in between the two, he did compare you to cliff. But honestly the two quotes above are pretty far apart. You did not address the second to robin true. You knew he would read it.

Umm. I thought things were going pretty well until he drew the cliff-analogy. Granted that started the ball rolling. Your reply was pretty strong - it was a bit of an eye-opener for me, I thought when I read it there was maybe something going on back-channel between the you and robin, or that maybe you were having a bad day otherwise. I've never been compared to cliff. Not sure what I would do in that case...

Granted there are few here who know as much as you do on that particular subject. It wasn't clear to me that robin was questioning your expertise on it as questioning the applicability in the application under question. I will indeed have to look again at what transpired.

Does this all fall under the 'by the time you're old enough to know a lot about something, that means you can react strongly to the younger guys in the shop' rule?

Sometimes the younger guys know more than the more experienced hands on some subject. Does that mean they get to react just as strongly, to them?

What is to be respected, knowledge or wisdom? I would say both. Grace under pressure is when the young buck kicks sand on your shoes, and you make it clear that a) you know more about it then he does, b) you do it in an even-handed tone, and c) he feels bad and apologizes because you've been so nice to him.

I think c) is unlikely now.

Oddly I cherry-pick both your, and robin's, posts here. You for the wisdom - long years of experience. Robin because he's one of the posters here who is currently deep in industry, in the machining field he's been trained for. I guess I'm really just muddying the waters here but in my defense you did ask me to explain my comments - I don't think that any one person is responsible, as you say.

You two may be years apart but I suspect you closer together than you both realize. Certainly if the two of you were put in a room with 98 other people you would stand out as the most closely matched in skills.

Respectfully - Jim

While I'm possibly fanning the flames by posting, I have only one thing to add.

I was not comparing Harold to Cliff. I thought they should discuss (again, the literal meaning of my words) this matter as Cliff (if my memory serves) has previously stated that centerless grinders do not make round parts.

Of course, with Cliff he might talking a couple of millionths of an inch, but that's besides the point.

The only comparison between Cliff and Harold is that they both (seem) to have great knowledge and experience in their respective fields. These fields happen to be at the opposite ends of the manufacturing spectrum, however.

Regards,

Robin

Rather difficult when it goes only one way, regardless of effort. But please read on---for there is more to this than meets the eye.

Yep, I said it, and under the circumstance, as I knew it, I'd say it again. Understand that this isn't about the current thread, but about a young person that has exercised his assumed right to never show respect to others, at least ----not to me. If you've read the other replies, you'll see that I'm not the only one that interpreted his comments the way I did.

You may recall my lumpy introduction to RCM many years ago----which, for some, apparently never got any better. That gives them license to ignore me, not to belittle me. If they choose to make what appear to be statements displaying their contempt for me, they should expect nothing less than that in return. However, in this instance it's entirely possible I, along with others, may have misinterpreted comments he made, which I addressed in my post to him earlier.

Just as he knew I'd read his post where it was assumed I was being compared to Cliff.

That, in a nut shell, is it. I explained that above. Some people make decisions and don't prefer to make another. Maybe they've not seen a good reason to do so. I prefer to not second guess anyone's motive, but can clearly see their attitude, and their spelling it out for me convinces me I was reading it correctly.

You and I started out pretty lumpy, too, but each of us appear to have managed to learn to respect the other, even when we don't agree (which, surprisingly, isn't often).

Bad day? At my age, most of them are. Do your hands ache routinely? (Arthritis). Vision in the toilet? Short of energy? Ringing in your left ear, and it ain't the phone? Getting old isn't fun, Jim. Enjoy your youth.

Likely something like I did. None of us enjoy the suggestion that we aren't up to much. But then, as I understand it now, I have to assume that I was *not* compared to Cliff, and for that I offered my apology.

Perhaps you now understand that I accept responsibility for my misunderstanding. My reaction would have been proper, in my opinion, had it been true. For that I would not have offered an apology.

Nope, and I hope you understand that I have the utmost respect for anyone that has mastered the trade, with age making no difference. I bow to those with skills I don't have, but I also expect the same in return. Life isn't about everyone collecting everything they desire and not giving anything in return. I respect you and your years of education and experience in your chosen field. I expect that I receive the same for my meager accomplishments.

Chuckle! I get your point, and I'm not sure it was ever more evident that with the then very young Australian doctor that made the connection between ulcers and helicobacter pylori bacterium. His experiences with the medical profession boggle the mind, and were made even more difficult by the fact that he was outside his field of expertise. I'd like to think I'm better than that, Jim. I listen to and pay great respect to a friend that is young enough to be my son, a mold maker. I also encourage and advise him to the best of my ability. I have an ego, but try to temper it with logic, wisdom and good sense.

Yeah, probably so----but it has little to do with what transpired in the past couple days, at least as I see it. That was just the proverbial straw. The attitude I thought existed was clearly stated. Why would anyone show respect or attempt to rectify a misunderstanding when they have no care, no respect, no desire? I'm OK with that. There are plenty of skilled people that I can have an exchange with without the acrimony. It hasn't been my practice to seek out young people for company, anyway.

Not muddying the waters in my opinion, Jim. I'm one of those people that rarely puts a problem away without a resolution. I generally like to get things resolved and make or accept any necessary apologies. If that isn't possible, the least that I would expect is that everyone involved at least understands what the hell all the commotion is about. While it's unlikely anything good came from this, perhaps you and I understand somewhat better what really transpired, and that things are not always as they appear. I asked for your opinion, and I got it. You delivered what I think is a fair, level handed opinion. That's what I expected, and I thank you for it.

Interesting comment, Jim.

Harold

If that be the case, I owe you an apology--and you have it here. I had no way of knowing that such a statement had been made at any time by Cliff. I've never read anything that indicated he knows the slightest thing about machining, let alone centerless grinders, which are in a world all their own. So you'll understand my ignorance, I read Cliff's drivel until I realized all he did was pick on Gunner, at which point I quit reading. I don't look at anything he has to say, although it's there should I have need. I don't plonk people, I simply ignore them.

When you suggested I have a conversation with Cliff, to me, with my lack of understanding that he had made comments on and appeared to know something about centerless grinding (which is questionable if he thinks they can't make round objects), the only thing I could read into your post was you intended to compare me to another that, in my opinion, lends nothing to this news group and has no clue. If you don't understand how that might come across, perhaps when you've spent a great deal of your life in the shop and have earned the respect of your peers, it will make sense then. I've worked hard for my knowledge and the respect I've earned and don't appreciate anyone making light of it. After all, some of us don't have all that much we've accomplished in our lifetime, and don't like what little we have accomplished belittled. Surely you can understand that.

You can dislike me all you want, but you'll come to understand that when I speak of machining, it's not conjecture. I've "been there, done that" and know what I'm talking about, although you may find circumstances may make things different for some situations and my experience may not apply. For sure, however, when it comes to centerless grinding, there is no doubt in my mind that they are capable of holding a few millionths in the hands of one qualified. That was and is my point. If you understand why rigid hones make round holes out of tapered and irregular holes, you will then understand why a centerless makes parts round, *so long as they are not operated on center*, which is easy to do if one changes part size but not blade height. That won't make sense to you until you get your hands dirty on the machine.

Robin, I'm more than willing to get along with anyone and everyone. However, they must have a similar desire. You and I haven't really gotten along in the many years I've frequented this forum, and you've made it abundantly clear you have no desire to do so now. That might also help you understand my comments previously. I'm old enough to be your grandfather, but you seem to see me as nothing more than some dude your age whom you don't like. Had you shown me a modicum of respect through the years, my attitude towards you would be far different from what it is. Now that you've made it clear I read you correctly, I accept it. How we can co-exist is for you to leave me alone, which I will do in kind for you. Understand that I refuse to have a relationship with anyone that isn't willing to extend to me the common courtesy of showing respect I feel we owe each and every person we encounter in life, until they have provided a reason not to.

Whether a particular machine is, or not, may be questionable, but the concept is capable. Operators make the difference. Again, that's why I tried to not provide hard figures. They have no meaning, only on a given machine and operator. High precision is a different animal from normal work. How you hold your mouth may make the difference. :-)

Harold

Er, not *that* lumpy. At least as I recall. There were worse....

er guys in the shop' rule?

Honestly I think I have maybe a few more years of experience than robin but my formal training in the area of things that discussed here is probably well below his. Really. My sum total of formal training the machining fields is *two* (count 'em, two) night classes which I took about 25 years ago because I had purchased a used (*very* well used) atlas 9" lathe.

I have worked as a research engineer since then, of course. I know things he doesn't know, he knows things I don't know.

My understanding was, he "proved" the point by infecting himself with the bacterium, deliberately. Thus giving himself and ulcer. Then he "cured" the ulcer with a dose of penicillin.

The drug companies certainly understood the meaning of the experiment. Overnight they had all their ulcer medications re-classified as OTC instead of prescription. That was about the time I lost all respect for them.

My guess is that if you went back in time and met yourself at robin's age, you might give yourself the same reaction you are giving him at the moment. Maybe.

Jim

I appriciate you saying that. Further, I appologize for not making myself clear enough and for *pushing* when (we know now) there was certianly no reason.

Cliff, I think, is something of a sport hunter. On occation things related to manufacturing bubble to the surface, but the signal to noise ratio can be a turn-off.

I certainly understand it. I think I'm too young to take that point of view as my own, however.

I don't dislike you at all. I don't dislike anyone here either. Also, I don't question your knowledge or experience. You have more than proven yourself to anyone who reads this forum habitually.

I view relationships within this group as I do relationships at work. Some people I tolerate, others I enjoy working with. I enjoy reading your posts as there's almost always something of value. Not many here can say that about their posts (me included).

I think that's one of the few things I am certain of in metalworking.

I think I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know anyone else who has run a centerless grinder.

Well, in a way your right. I don't actively try to get along with anyone here. I see this forum as a place to get and give (more of the former) information. I do try not to be rude (although I'm not always successful) as this is a courtesy I extend to any person I do not know (wherever I happen to interact with them).

I don't believe I have an attitude towards you and I find it unfortunate that you read a post in a certain light just because it is marked with my name. This is not a dig, just my perspective.

I can tell how hard a friend of mine is working because of how his tounge moves (outside his mouth, of course) as he's operating a machine or tool. I'm surprised it doesn't get burnt when he's using a facemill...

Regards,

Robin

Well put.

Jim

Hard to imagine! But I'm pleased to have persevered. Great bunch of guys here!

I'm not as concerned with the amount of training so much as the width of the training. I had no education regards machining, just what I got in high school. I was fortunate to land a job that was seeking people just like me, mechanical aptitude, but no bad habits, so they could be specifically trained. Sadly, the training was job specific, so while I got excellent training from top notch people, the training suited the facility, so it's more or less job specific. I am woefully lacking in certain areas, such as gear machining. It was not a requirement for the job, so it never happened. Had it not been for my last job, where I worked in a job shop that had to produce any and everything, generally for the aero-space industry, I might have never learned enough to function on my own, but that short period of time, coupled with my prior years of experience, was the fastest and best learning curve I encountered. I strongly suggest anyone interested in learning machining seize the opportunity to work in just such a shop. It's the best OJT you can get, and teaches plenty about adhering to proper procedures, for the vast majority of the work is well scrutinized by QC. I'm not keen on slop work, never have been. Making *good* parts is far more important that just making parts.

I think that goes with almost any job, Jim, regardless of education. I can honestly say I doubt I'd find many people here with chemical degrees that know the procedure for refining gold chemically, and I know almost nothing about chemistry. I had a need to know, they likely never have had the need. They could explain to me why the process works, but may not know it such that they could apply it. I've learned that almost everyone brings something to the table. Whether it is of use to me, or not, becomes the question.

That's pretty much how he went about it, but over a long period, with plenty of setbacks and insults from his peers. His story was published in Reader's Digest, October, 1993, long before I had a scanner. I was so impressed that I typed it (verbatim) into my computer and still have it for reference. I had a bleeding ulcer in the mid 80's and have been plagued by a bad stomach for years. I gave up smoking my pipes as a result (that's a good thing), plus couldn't drink coffee or soft drinks for years. It got to the point where I couldn't enjoy a light scotch and water, my favorite drink.

While it's true that they did just that, I'm not convinced it was because of their greed (which is likely a first!). The timing doesn't go hand in hand with the change in sales. What they did was likely a result of the patent running out on the first generation of these drugs, and they were being made by many other pharmaceutical houses and sold at relatively low prices. I have no idea who pushed for them to be sold OTC, but I'm certainly grateful for it happening. The move to OTC sales really benefited me, for I take cimetidine daily, and have for years. I recall with chagrin the cost was something like a couple bucks/pill at one time. I discovered that I overproduce acid, and that kept my stomach in horrible condition, but perfect for helicobacter. Just a year ago I was treated yet again, and this time, for what appears to be the first time, the level of bacteria has been lowered (or eliminated) such that I can once again enjoy a glass of wine, or that light drink of scotch I mentioned, and not be sorry. Also, for the first time, I was treated with two antibiotics, not just one. Treatment included bismuth. As you likely know, unlike earlier concepts, diet plays almost no role in treatment aside from ignoring things that irritate.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't think so. I'm not convinced Robin is anywhere nearly as cocky as I was. I had a tremendous amount of growing up to do at that age. I'd have likely been much harder on myself, at least with my present attitude. Had it not been for my exceptional ability on the machines, I'd have been dismissed early on. Surely my demeanor wasn't much of an asset. I was damned lucky to survive my youth, from all indications.

Harold

I hope robin's reading this.... :^)

Jim

sounds to me like you're looking for a lawyer....