Athearn 0-4-2t - binding gears?

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While the above is true, it also has nothing to do with the CAD argument. There is no equivalent in mechanical drafting to having some "monkey" dropping billets of raw steel in a CNC milling machine and you get a finished product by the end of the day. There's no such thing as having someone take pictures of a new EMD or GE loco, loading them into a computer, and getting a finished AutoCAD drawing. It doesn't work that way, at least not yet. There is a lot of skill involved in using CAD.
Paul A. Cutler III ************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************
Reply to
Pac Man
Oh, please. Right now, you sound like one of those old fogeys who complains about all those young whippersnappers. You could have started this rant with, "Back in *my* day..." It would have fit right in.
Have you ever done CAD or hand drafting? Do you have idea of the skill involved in creating a CAD drawing? It certainly doesn't appear so. I was in the very last mechanical hand drafting class in my college (Wentworth Inst. of Tech., Boston, MA) in the Fall of 1993. I consider hand drafting to be one of my hobbies as I enjoy putting pencil to paper. I still do a lot of my initial sketching for any drawing by hand. But there's no way in hell that I would ever consider doing it for a living with deadlines and such hanging over me. One little mistake in drafting, and you either burn a lot of eraser or start over. One little mistake in CAD, and I can just lasso the whole part and move it over a fraction or whatever I need to do. I have used AutoCAD r11, 12, 13, & 14 (it's been a while), and I also use 3rdPlanIt for layout design. It's a different skill to be sure, but CAD needs just as much skill as drafting to get it right. Sure, there's less artistic skill in CAD...but this is mechanical drafting, not art class.
Aren't these drawings in MR, etc. also famous for being frequently wrong?
Paul A. Cutler III ************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************
Reply to
Pac Man
The skill has been transferred to the CNC programmer and fixture designer. They both (could be one person) need to be well versed in machining principles to be effective. I'd be willing to bet they make more than the manual machinist, unless he's exceptional, more of a tool maker.
Bill MacIndoe
Reply to
MacIndoe
I'm not sure about that - I'm my own draughtsman/CAD operator, lathe and milling machine operator and CNC programmer. I seem to get paid the same amount whichever way I go - nothing!
Regards, Greg.P. NZ
Reply to
Greg Procter
I have used Acad 13, but prefer Microstation. I currently use M-station 95 on my old 486 computer. It's more than enough for my needs.
One thing I have noticed since CAD has become so readily available: people drafting who know just enough about it to put their idea on paper, but not enough to do a proper drawing. My pet peeves are overly complex drawings and improper dimensioning. If a design is complex enough to do more than one drawing DO it. Also, keep the fershluggener dimensions out of the way and to a minimum, the term "typ" seems to confuse some people. I have seen extension lines obscure details too many times. Back in the paper and t-square days my instructors were fanatics about dimensioning.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Reply to
Dan
Most of the guys who do the manual work, Do prototyping work or short production run work only. In ways they actually do do simular work to a tool and Die even though. Its funny because when I went to school for mechanical engineering. We thought that Cad/Cam would eliminate the need for machinist to do this sort of work. In actuality it has made it more valuable because unlike twenty years ago when we had thirty skilled machinist who could who could compently operate manual equipment without DRO's or CNC controlers we have maybe two or three tool and Die makers, who While being over Qualified are the only people who are trusted not to smuck up these small low production jobs. When we get prototypes approved and orders big enough to warrant, then we get the programmer and Fixture designers involved. I also know of a shop that has three large vertical turning machines. two date from the thirties and the forties. The newer one dates from the fifties. These machines turn turbine castings that are about ten foot in Diameter and larger. I don't know if its still true but at one point I was told that these three where were the last three in the northeast. The guys who run these machines are the senior machinists in thier shop when they retire or pass away there are no operators who can replace their body of knowlege or skill. This in effect will put this comany out of business unless they can find a CNC machine and a programmer. The problem is that a with new technology people forget the infra structure that old technology provided to get skill laborers at the highest levels. How many Companys still employ a Mill Wright. In the company I used to work for the last old school maintance guy retired he now makes twice as much as consultant for them. He sends hours explaining the basic of transitor and tube control panels, these were on fortie plus year old machines for making fibreglass laminates. Theses machines in some cases were constructrd by trial and error when computers took up entire rooms. And while they the the people who could operate and work on this technology were plentiful the company flourished. Now that the skilled operators and maintance no longer exist. The company laid off over 600 other employees in the plant and shipped all the work to and new overseas plant that is completely automated. Sorry for My Ludditte Rant but I always remember a my college machine shop teacher telling me that civilization won't colaplapse due to poloticians It will be because no one can remember how to fix What once anybody could fix. In his class room He had framed IBM punch Card and challanged all students to try figure out the the DATA on it. Last I knew no one had. It contained some of the orginal programming for the Appollo program I believe
Reply to
jeffrey David Miller
When I was a carpenter (up until this last August) I would love to call up the architects or more commonly Designer (this means Art Major with CAD program and pretensions of Frank Lloyd Wright) to get them to explain their math or to get useful dimensions. The first answer would be that we must have screwed up our framing and they would come out to the site and show us how we screwed up and then we would get out our plans and show them that are measurements matched the plans. The next target was always the computer must have made a mistake. I often wondered of these guys would benefit in lesson on the computer acronym GIGO
Reply to
jeffrey David Miller
Don't you love it? I love to mess with engineering types with useless metrics like velocity measured in furlongs per fortnight.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Reply to
Dan
I could still do it, at least for the alphanumerics. Some of the special characters I've forgotten. It was a long time ago :-).
Reply to
Larry Blanchard
[...]
And the irony is that a good carpenter can build a sound structure with no more than properly dimensioned _sketch plan_. That's what our friend did when he added an enclosed porch to our house. I gave him a ground plan, and front view, and cross section. He modified my roof truss design, and suggested an 8ft width rather than the 6ft I'd sketched, because he doesn't liking cutting plywood any more than he has to. Did a great job - the porch is now a sun room, too.
HTH
Reply to
Wolf K.
Similar thing is true of home entertainment media. A lot of 8mm and super-8 is languishing in people's closets, never to be seen again. They've long ago sold their projectors....
There's also the issue over designing new technology just because you can. Think of all the unnecessary features on the latest versions of GPS navigator units. MP3???? Dumb-oh.
Or cars: Just a few weeks ago, my niece and nephew bought an new car. The niece tried to open the car with the keys to their older car (same make, same key-series), and the new car promptly shut down. Completely. Took a tow, and a couple hours work by a technician to persuade the onboard computer to let the car run again. I guess the shut-down is a "security feature." Stoopid IMO.
Bah!
Reply to
Wolf K.
True, but a lot of data resided on those punch cards, and on those huge reels of magnetic tape. A lot of it has been lost, irretrievably. And the spate of "privacy of information" laws has made the situation worse. Future historians will have a hell of a time figuring who we were, what we did, why, and how. No data = no insight.
Anecdote: back in the 70s our principal took an upgrade course and had to write an historical essay based on original documents. It so happened that Norman Bethune's father was pastor at the local church for a while, and Norman went to school here. Our principal wrote a nice little pamphlet about Bethune's high school years. Couldn't do that now - apart from yearbooks, all the relevant data would have been destroyed, lest it fall under the beady eyes of "unauthorised persons."
Bah again!
Reply to
Wolf K.
I would have said 12-1 = A and 11-1 = J because that's the way I learned it, but your way is also correct and helps remember at least two of the special characters. Now what the heck was 0-1?.
I used to read mag tape too. Used a system called MagneFlux which made the magnetic spots visible. And DON'T get me started on paper tape :-).
Reply to
Larry Blanchard
"Wolf K." wrote in news:4788de69$0$14082$ snipped-for-privacy@news.newshosting.com:
*snip*
It is a "security feature." It's just not to keep your car from being stolen. It's to keep the money flow secure.
Puckdropper
Reply to
Puckdropper
You don't want to remember when optical scan of paper tape was considered high speed compared to pin read? Not that I remember when a TTY terminal time share was a Good Thing? or dropping off punch cards one day and getting to debug the next day or any of that stuff there.
Somewhere in my stash I have a block of core memory.
Now, if you want to go back to the dark ages I remember using a calculator the size of a desk with columns of buttons, oodles of large relays and two aluminum memory drums, each about 6" in diameter and 3 feet long if memory serves.
I used to be into science fiction back then. There were stories of pocket sized calculators which always seemed to be disc shaped.
OK, enough of this, I suddenly feel old. You think YOU have it rough? I had to walk bare foot to school...uphill....both ways...
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Reply to
Dan
This sounds like a great way of hayduking someone whose done you dirty. Just slip a key into their door, turn it, take it out and walk away. Cause them hours and dollars worth of hassle.
Wolf K. wrote:
"Or cars: Just a few weeks ago, my niece and nephew bought an new car. The niece tried to open the car with the keys to their older car (same make, same key-series), and the new car promptly shut down. Completely. Took a tow, and a couple hours work by a technician to persuade the onboard computer to let the car run again. I guess the shut-down is a "security feature." Stoopid IMO. "
Reply to
newyorkcentralfan

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