If you imagine a profile of an equilateral triangle, with each side an arc centered on the opposite corner, you have the makings of a roller which will give a flat bottomed load a smooth ride!
I and others have also noticed the harder the metal wheel, the less dirt it attracts, hence my preference for stainless steel driving wheels.
Agreed. Plus they have a higher coefficient of friction than nickel-silver or brass (more T.E.), and wear longer. I've made a few such tires as replacements, and been very satisfied with the result. I wish more manufacturers would use SS loco (at least) tires.
The downside is that most stainless steels are hard to machine without proper technique, and don't machine easily on small non-rigid hobby-sized machines. It's do-able, but more care and technique must be used, compared to brass or NS. The 'trick' to working stainless is to use VERY sharp tools, and cut aggressively. You need to cut deep enough to get under the metal's hardened 'skin', and once you get a cut going, DON'T stop until you're finished. If you let the tool 'skate' on the metal surface, the SS will work harden, and it'll be VERY difficult to get the cut going again. The idea is to peel off the metal as fast as it work hardens, so the tool is always working on fresh metal. An adequately aggressive cut can be hard to maintain with 'flexible' and low powered machines. Such factors are not much of a issue with industrial grade machinery, though proper technique is still needed.
Dan Mitchell ============
snip....
Here is some outside the box thinking for you.... How about a rough section of track that vibrates to break the surface tension of the crud and knock it of. This should work as well as the square wheels...
Who supplies driving wheels with stainless steel tyres? and at what price? All the claimed benefits are obtained with mild steel tyres which are readily available in a huge range of sizes and have been proven on thousands of locos. I have some in service which have been in use for over 35 years now and do everything mentioned above. Keith See or
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
I disagree with Mikes assessment about the coefficient of friction for stainless steel and oily nickel silver track. My measurements put it at about the same as nickel plated wheels, which is less than the softer materials. However I still can run full prototype length trains.
RTR brass models from Asia come with stainless steel wheels. It costs about double to machine stainless steel compared to brass. That's why manufacturers have generally avoided using it.
The only problem with mild steel is it rusts, and if rusty electrical pickup is poor. The fact is in my local environment, Sydney Australia, steel rusts quickly and would be a maintenance nightmare. Not a problem with stainless steel wheels, which I have been using for about 20 years without any rust. It's interesting that only some UK manufacturers make mild steel wheels, with Sharman wheels offering nickel silver tyres as the more expensive option. Nickel silver also does not rust, is good for pickup. It's my second choice for driving wheels, I have NWSL Nickel Silver wheels on some of my diesel locomotives, where the wheels are mostly hidden, and colour of the wheel tread is not as obvious. Much better than blackened brass or nickel plated brass which after some running wears back to dirt attracting brass.
yeah, I noticed that, I use P2K's wheelsets too :) I'm don't know what kind of plastic they use, but they sure roll good.
Bachmann, Life like and low end train set models? I thought you said decent kits? ;^)
Generally, YES, however in a moist environment it will rust, with corresponding electrical contact and bonding problems. In a dry climate it may well work just fine. I've not had much practical experience with plain steel driver tires, but I have had a bunch of experience with plain steel HO RAIL. A lot of steel rail was sold during W.W.II when use of brass was restricted. It works, but it does rust, and does cause contact problems.
If you run your trains a LOT, normal friction will keep the steel railhead (and presumably steel wheels) clean (just like the prototype). But, let it set for a while under moist conditions, and you have a BIG cleaning problem ... much worse than with oxidized brass rail. BTDT, several times, on a friend's model railroad. He used to run his trains a
*LOT*! In fact, he's one of the few people I know who regularly wore out both wheelsets and brass rail. still, he had continuing problems with the steel rail.One also gets dissimilar metal corrosion under moist conditions between copper feed wires and the steel rail. This is made MUCH worse by use of corrosive solder flux (which should NOT be used anyway). Steel is harder to solder (than copper/brass) without use of corrosive fluxes, but it CAN be done.
On the plus side, it wears well, looks good, and does indeed give better traction.
Overall, from my experience and opinion, it's not worth the problems in my environment (Michigan). YMMV.
Dan Mitchell ============
Decent kits **AND* low end stuff.
Dan Mitchell ============
ie they are not generally available.
Like I said, in 35 years this has never been a problem, including when I lived in Sydney.
Then you have another 15 years to go before they are shown to equal my mild steel ones.
The two suppliers with the biggest range use steel for most of their range, the other suppliers cater for those who believe the anti-steel views frequently expressed by those who have never actually tried it.
Can you support that? Nothing about such an option on their website and I have never been offered a choice when buying them. They do use nickel silver for their 3mm scale wheels which are done at the 3mm society request.
It oxidises which is pretty much the same thing!
Its my second choice to, still need the odd wheel that is not available in steel.
At least we seem to agree that brass is unsuitable for wheel tyres. Keith
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
There are a lot of grades of mild steel, in my experience the steel used for the last 30 years or so for tyres and rail in the UK does not give problems in any reasonable domestic environment, (is Michigan akin to Brisbane?) There have been production runs of train set track using really cheap and nasty steel that gave the sort of problems you describe, and the reputation is hard to dislodge. Keith
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
Hi Keith:
I'm not sure of the environment around Brisbane. The only part of Australia I've been to is the Sydney, Canberra, Melbourne area (back in the 1970's), for a solar eclipse. When I was there it was fairly humid and warm. The climate seemed much milder than here in Michigan ... more like the south eastern USA.
Michigan has VERY variable weather. It can be anywhere from 105+ F to
-40 degrees F, with LOTS of seasonal, and daily, change. We're surrounded on three sides by water (six sides if you include our "upper penninsula"), rather like a big island. Most ways the wind can blow, it passes over water. It can be quite humid at any time of year (until the lakes freeze clear over). And, yes, most steel rusts around here. Though the surrounding water is 'fresh', our local municipalities SALT the roads something fearce all winter (salt is relatively cheap). It 'dissolves' our motor vehicles wonderfully fast. :-((
It's somewhat like living near the sea, with lots of salt in the air.
I was referring to W.W.II vintage HO steel rail (unknown composition) that was intended for 'hand laying'.
I'd forgotten about the wonderful (NOT) Tyco and Bachmann plated steel track of recent years. Yes, THAT rusts too. Plated steel Lionel "O" and "O-27" gauge "tinplate" type track also rusts. They all rust as soon as the plating wears through.
Dan Mitchell ============
I have an old Triang model with pressed steel drivers which have not rusted. The machined steel wheels I have in the draw have rusted. Stainless steel will out last any other type of driving wheel.
Terry Flynn
DC control circuit diagrams
HO scale track standards
It would be better if they were, better pickup for locomotives, less dirt pickup on carriage wheels, suitable for magnetic operated couplers if non magnetic stainless steel is used.
Then why do the UK manufactured wheels I have a thick layer of rust on them?
The mild steel in my layout room got a layer of rust on it in less than six months. The same with the mild steel at work, all has a rust layer on it. Stainless steel will outlast mild steel, because it does not rust and is harder. Much better than mild steel for small scale driving wheels.
In order for steel wheels to be reliable, frequent running of locomotives would be required, or a layer of oil be kept on all steel surfaces. I don't need to do this with stainless steel. Not running a model for a month makes no difference.
Yes, it's there on the web page, though they say production is temporally stoped, and to contact them for prices. It's interesting the 3mm society does not like steel. As you go smaller in size, pickup becomes more important for running.
The difference is the nickel silver oxide conducts electricity, rust is a poor conductor.
Yet plated or blackened brass is commonly used on current RTR models.
Guyz,
I've been changing over to the Kadee composite material, or whatever they're called, wheelsets. A friend has been running these for years with no real dirt, tracking, or derailment problems. Personally, I don't want my cars to be all that free-rolling anyway. I'd like them to stay put when I uncouple and don't want to have a laser level or a gps system to make sure every foot of track is *perfectly* level.
Many say they like the sound of the metal wheels. Well last weekend I was running on a large layout who's owner had metal wheelset equipped cars. With all the noise they made I constantly kept thinking something had "gone on the ground". Very annoying.
This is my take. Of course, others have theirs.
Paul - "The CB&Q Guy" Modeling 1960's in HO.
Daniel A. Mitchell wrote: [...]
[...]Gee, sounds like Canada. :-)
On Fri, 18 Feb 2005 13:20:47 +1100, "Terry Flynn"
Can you provide a url for that web page? Keith
Make friends in the hobby. Visit Garratt photos for the big steam lovers.
Most metal wheels that are free rolling need a fairly steep grade before they start rolling. I have track in a yard with a 1 in 80 grade, the carriages do not roll down the grade without a push.
Yes.
You're gonna knock the little clip on tail lights off at the same time!!! ;-)
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