Braze or solder copper refrigerant lines to fittings

It seems like the two primary methods for connecting copper to copper refrigerant lines to fittings are either Sil Phos 15 brazing rod or
Stay Brite silver solder.
I've done gas welding and some plumbing soldering jobs but would only rate myself as a novice.
Which method is easier for a novice to do reliably? (Sil Phos or Staybrite silver solder.)
I plan to do lots of practice on scrap copper pipe and fittings until I'm proficient. I'd like to know which method is easier to learn and do reliably so I have a good starting point.
For brazing copper lines (3/8 to 1-1/8" in diameter) what oxy/acet tip do you prefer to use. (small rosebud??) Will a Turbo Torch w/ #4 tip and MAPP gas braze using Sil Phos 15? What about the Quick Braze?? Is it worth getting??
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cz111 had written this in response to http://www.thestuccocompany.com/hvac/Braze-or-solder-copper-refrigerant-lines-to-fittings-10462-.htm :
------------------------------------- henny wrote:

I was told by a heating and cooling repairman (who has lied to me more than once) and his boss that torch brazing copper tubing does not require the tubes to be cleaned or fluxed because the high temperature along with a 'special silver soder' will eliminate all oxidization, oils, etc... Any comments???
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The 15% silver braze sticks I bought years ago said they were "self fluxing". But, I have never taken the chance that they might be mistaken.
--
Christopher A. Young
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Stormin Mormon wrote:

Whatttt?? You gotta be kidding. This is for copper brazed AC lines? I do hope you ran some nitrogen through those lines. Dammit Steve, Your Apprentice is running Amok.,
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Stormy doesn't own a N2 kit... remember, his Pinto can't haul much.
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Holy Crap,
What's with all this talk about silver solder, stick solder, Oxy/ACE, yadda, yadda.... That stuff is uh, nice, but certainly not neccessary for 'this' task.
- Score the pipes, fittings outside / inside with steel wool, clean em' off with a dry 'clean rag'. - Fit together parts/joints, flux with water base (non-Acid) flux - Turn on the $10.00 propane torch, heat the joints until the flux discolors , wet the seams really nice with 95/5 solder.
Bob's your uncle....
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That's nice, but technical bulletin # TB 98-04B Dated 11/12/98 states not to use low temp (soft) solder on R410a units. Situation: It causes a jell-like acidic substance that will plug metering devices, strainers, and feeder tubes. Solution: Units must NOT be installed with flux and soft solder. Units MUST be brazed using silver bearing or non-silver bearing brazing material such as sil-fos or plos-copper on all copper to copper connections.
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Man, You're quoting regs from 10 years ago ! You guys sure have some strange regulations down there.... Also, where would the acidity be coming from if you are using a non-Acid flux ? The chemical properties of 95% tin and 5% Zinc SOLDER is 'completely' different than the zinc coating say,.. on the inside/ outside of a pipe ! Companies here have been installing 60 gallon water tanks (1000's of them yearly) the same way with no issues. I can't understand why anyone would use "Copper Phos" (is that what you meant ?) or any stick for that matter on a simple copper to copper connection, and especially a tiny 1/8th connector in a refrigeration scenario.
The only reaon anyone wouldn't use the "Far less expensive 95/5" is because they don't have the skills to keep the pipe and connectors at a constant temperature which is far LOWER than stick or silphos. The application in question just does NOT warrant Stick (silver bearing solder maybe...) but Copper PHosphate and High temp stick ?...... Overkill.
Cheers,
/FC....
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Man, You're quoting regs from 10 years ago ! You guys sure have some strange regulations down there.... Also, where would the acidity be coming from if you are using a non-Acid flux ? The chemical properties of 95% tin and 5% Zinc SOLDER is 'completely' different than the zinc coating say,.. on the inside/ outside of a pipe ! Companies here have been installing 60 gallon water tanks (1000's of them yearly) the same way with no issues. I can't understand why anyone would use "Copper Phos" (is that what you meant ?) or any stick for that matter on a simple copper to copper connection, and especially a tiny 1/8th connector in a refrigeration scenario.
The only reaon anyone wouldn't use the "Far less expensive 95/5" is because they don't have the skills to keep the pipe and connectors at a constant temperature which is far LOWER than stick or silphos. The application in question just does NOT warrant Stick (silver bearing solder maybe...) but Copper PHosphate and High temp stick ?...... Overkill.
Cheers,
/FC....
where you been. Did you wag school when they were teaching how to braze refrig lines. Just read the install manual from any manufacturer
e.g Daikin
CAUTION TO BE TAKEN WHEN BRAZING REFRIGERANT PIPING
.Do not use flux when brazing refrigerant piping. Therefore, use the phosphor copper brazing filler metal
(BCuP-2: JIS Z 3264/B-Cu93P-710/795: ISO 3677) which does not require flux..
(Flux has extremely harmful influence on refrigerant piping systems. For instance, if the chlorine based flux is
used, it will cause pipe corrosion or, in particular, if the flux contains fluorine, it will damage the refrigerant oil.)
 Before brazing local refrigerant piping, nitrogen gas shall be blown through the piping to expel air from the
piping.
If you brazing is done without nitrogen gas blowing, a large amount of oxide film develops inside the piping,
and could cause system malfunction.
 When brazing the refrigerant piping, only begin brazing after having carried out nitrogen substitution or
while inserting nitrogen into the refrigerant piping. Once this is done, connect the indoor unit with a flared
or a flanged connection.
 Nitrogen should be set to 0.02 MPa with a pressure-reducing valve if brazing while inserting nitrogen into
the piping.
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Man, You're quoting regs from 10 years ago ! You guys sure have some strange regulations down there.... Also, where would the acidity be coming from if you are using a non-Acid flux ? The chemical properties of 95% tin and 5% Zinc SOLDER is 'completely' different than the zinc coating say,.. on the inside/ outside of a pipe ! Companies here have been installing 60 gallon water tanks (1000's of them yearly) the same way with no issues. I can't understand why anyone would use "Copper Phos" (is that what you meant ?) or any stick for that matter on a simple copper to copper connection, and especially a tiny 1/8th connector in a refrigeration scenario.
The only reaon anyone wouldn't use the "Far less expensive 95/5" is because they don't have the skills to keep the pipe and connectors at a constant temperature which is far LOWER than stick or silphos. The application in question just does NOT warrant Stick (silver bearing solder maybe...) but Copper PHosphate and High temp stick ?...... Overkill.
Cheers,
/FC....
It has *nothing* to do with "regs", it has to do with manufacturers instructions and good engineering practices. BTW... the customer pays for *EVERYTHING*
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Big difference. A refrigerant system has a tiny orifice to meter the refrigerant. A 60 gal water tank uses 1/2 or 3/4 copper water pipe.
--
Christopher A. Young
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Man, You're quoting regs from 10 years ago ! You guys sure have some strange regulations down there.... Also, where would the acidity be coming from if you are using a non-Acid flux ? The chemical properties of 95% tin and 5% Zinc SOLDER is 'completely' different than the zinc coating say,.. on the inside/ outside of a pipe ! Companies here have been installing 60 gallon water tanks (1000's of them yearly) the same way with no issues. I can't understand why anyone would use "Copper Phos" (is that what you meant ?) or any stick for that matter on a simple copper to copper connection, and especially a tiny 1/8th connector in a refrigeration scenario.
The only reaon anyone wouldn't use the "Far less expensive 95/5" is because they don't have the skills to keep the pipe and connectors at a constant temperature which is far LOWER than stick or silphos. The application in question just does NOT warrant Stick (silver bearing solder maybe...) but Copper PHosphate and High temp stick ?...... Overkill.
Cheers,
/FC....
Yeah, following manufacture's installation instructions is "Overkill". <rolleyes>
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KJPRO wrote:

It is really irritating to have units that were brazed to code with 15-Silver phos 20 to 30 years ago and not one damned call to top them off. Christ, a Guy could starve to death doing it right. I wonder if maybe we could borrow a few $thousand from the guys that get call back after call back due to shitty work practices. Next, some hack will pop up and try to sell us on superglue, because you can save on using nitrogen.

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What's nitrogen for??? :-) Stormy is now searching Nitrogen and HVAC...
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Next thing you know, he'll be looking for "vacuum pump"
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He probably pulls a hose from the Pinto... aint that good enough?
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om...
Cheeeerist....,
I could put together copper pipe better than most of you 'loudmouth's with a freaking 100 watt soldering iron.....
heh,heh....
/FC...
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You noticed? The louder the protest, the less comptetence of the writer.
--
Christopher A. Young
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pot kettle black
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Cheeeerist....,
I could put together copper pipe better than most of you 'loudmouth's with a freaking 100 watt soldering iron.....
heh,heh....
/FC...
Knock yourself out sport....
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