Hardfacing question

How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks, BobH
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:50:05 -0700, BobH

Bob...I think you are laboring under a misconception about casehardening.
It must be a decent, alloy to caseharden. And case hardening is only in actuallity a few thousands thick
Now hardfacing..thats putting a very thick layer of very hard material over whatever it is that you are hard facing. It could be crappy mild steel, jello or what have you.
There is good reasons to caseharden. Size must not change, etc etc
But there are very many more reasons to face when making up tools that will be abused and need sharpening regularly.
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves, but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post, listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02 worth."
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Gunner Asch wrote:

Thanks! I was thinking that the Kasenite supplied enough carbon and whatever magic stuff makes for hard steel to work with mild steel. I was aware that it was only a few thousandths thick though.
Bob
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:14:54 -0700, BobH

It does. The Kasenite simply adds carbon to the material you are case hardening - however, as Gunner says, it is a very thin layer. But having said that we used to make one off tools from low or medium carbon steel and Kasenite them. It worked but you needed to re Kasenite them if you re-sharpened them.
Cheers,
Bruce (bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom)
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Casehardening will work with mild steel. If you start with a decent alloy, you will end up with a tougher item. But casehardening mild steel works.
Maybe you are thinking of nitriding.
Dan
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What's that Lassie? You say that Gunner Asch fell down the old sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:24:43 -0800:

Are you sure about that? I've seen stuff that had about .050" case to it. (thompson shafts) A real bitch to machine through. Worse to drill and tap a hole that is part into the hard area.
I thought that you could make case hardening quite thick, but usually it's very thin.
--

Dan H.
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:13:58 +0000, dan wrote:

From what I know (book learning only) you can case harden up to 50 mil or even more, but it takes a long time and it only works if you're using a process that keeps the piece immersed in a high-carbon atmosphere -- the carbon has to diffuse into the steel, so thick cases take hours or even days.
You're not going to improve the steel's grain structure, and a low-alloy steel with carbon is still a low-alloy steel with all it's quenching difficulties and non-high-speed properties, but in theory you can make a 'thick' case.
--
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:13:58 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@privacy.net (dan) wrote:

Yah...you can get it that thick.if you work at it. But .050 is still only 50 thousands and in most applications...thats simply not thick enough. Snow plow edge...perfect example...that puppy needs to be .500 or more thick just for one season.
I should add Im not a metalurgist..just a machine repair guy with some welding experience here and there....,<G>
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves, but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post, listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02 worth."
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 08:55:57 -0800, Gunner Asch wrote:

OTOH, on a hand chisel, knife or gouge a 50 mil case would last for years of resharpening.
Though I still think that for a woodworker's tool the right way to go is to just buy some good steel to start with...
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Tim Wescott wrote:

Not in a professional cabinetmakers shop . Especially if you have coworkers that like to borrow your chisels to cut nails .
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Snag
Works with wood
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CRINGE!!!!!
Sharpen it..and cut their throats with it after they do that......
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves, but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post, listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02 worth."
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Wood worker needs M2 or M42 steel when working with rose woods and other native trees due the silicate within the wood.
Martin
Tim Wescott wrote:

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Better is to laminate a soft and hard steel together.
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Look at plowing and scratching points - they have 'fingernails' that face the work and it is of abrasive resistance metal - BHN 400-600 and these take the face on wear. I use it to make targets and the hardness spec is the biggest grade, how they do it is by custom formula by each mill. The latest was a chrome-molly complex. Martin
Gunner Asch wrote:

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Check out http://www.nanosteelco.com/product/products_index.html .
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The hardfacing stuff I have is high manganese rods for use with tig or perhaps oxy acetylene if you have the right flux. It is more for ground contact surfaces than for holding an edge. It goes on kind of in globs much more than steel welding rod. Perhaps you have some other hardfacing substance in mind.
I had a quart sized can of the Kaseite which you heat the piece red hot and roll it around in the powder and then quench and repeat if desired. It worked well for hardening pins that things pivot on instead of buying something specifically designed to be machined and then hardened. Well I did it and installed the pins, they were too hard to file I can attest to that. Unfortunately I have used the can up. I would think that would be a better choice however it might not really end up having the type of edge holding qualities and strength you are looking for. When in high school in Industrial arts I think they called it we used files heated them red hot then quenched then baked for an hour at 350. I forgot where in the process you worked it into the new shape but you might try that instead.
Fran
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fran...123 wrote:

Instead of heating dipping over and over,if you want thick case hardening you can make a heavy container and heat the compound till it is molten and boil the article in it for a long while
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There are dozens of different hard facing or alloy rods. Some are high strength, some abrasion resistant, some shock resistant, etc. I use some for the bottom of my snow plow blades: make a new wear strip, run it for one snowfall to get the right edge shape, then put on 2 or 3 beads. The result lasts for several seasons. A file just bounces off, this material would need to be ground to shape if needed. Does it stick to the base metal? I've never had a section chip off even when I hit concrete edges and similar.
Case hardening works on mild steel, just that the base metal is not as strong. But the case hardening is only a few thousandths thick (longer soak time yields more depth). You cannot sharpen the surface, you will grind away all of the casehardening.
I've been making my woodworking cutter knives from A-2 steel with good success. In the annealed state it cuts very well with hacksaw, standard mills, drills, etc. Heat to ~1750F in a stainless steel foil bag, cool, temper in the kitchen oven at 400F to 600F depending on what properties you want. A-2 is available from Crucible Steel, McMaster, or Enco. Not cheap but very nice stuff.
BobH wrote:

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What's that Lassie? You say that RoyJ fell down the old sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:57:14 -0600:

What rod do you use? My boss at work has a snowplow that the edge is worn out.
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If it is a truck mounted snow plow blade, you need to get a new blade. building up the necessary thickness for commercial use is out of the question. A new blade runs $100 or so.
dan wrote:

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