Stainless Steel Mapp/Air torch?

I've used my MAPP torch set enough over the years, that if the burner tube was subject to quick or even steady, slow erosion, it would've happened by now, Jon.

I often run the fuel rate high enough to make the tube glow red (pretty much wide open at the tank-top regulator valve), and it hasn't eroded much, if any. It hasn't left any deep pits, or caused flaking of the SS.

I bought it at Sears, over 10 years ago (crap, maybe 20) and didn't expect it to be a long-lasting torch, but it has been. I can probably count the tools I've bought at Sears during that time on one hand, but as we know, Sears doesn't manufacture anything but receipts and flimsy, sometimes worthwhile warranties.

I guess the accurate answer is YMMV, as I have no idea what alloy the SS is, or what materials are used in newer torches.

Even though some users will state that MAPP can't be used to braze steel, the large one I have will do this, and I'm talking about steel bar stock, not little strips of sheet metal.

This particular set included 2 torches that screw into the tank top regulator, a light duty one about the same diameter as a common yellow pencil, and a larger one. I keep soft vacuum caps (the caps that are sold at auto parts stores for capping off vacuum fittings) to keep dirt out of the inlets/jets (and likewise covers on the tops of the tank fittings).

Thanks Bill, I do appreciate it. Sounds like yours held up to some good usage, that's good to know.

Jon

You can do steel brazing with propane - one of those swirl-torch gadgets. It's got to be fairly small, and the bottle gets cold (and empty) pretty quick, but it sure is handy for small jobs on a sunday - many places that are open will have propane.

Propane will also work for those zinc/aluminum-miracle-repair type rods, but MAPP is much better in that there isn't so much time (and fuel) wasted to get numerous connections or joints done quickly.

I've had fabricating projects where the aluminum repair rods were used for numerous joints using 1/8"x1" aluminum angle, and since aluminum dissipates heat so quickly, using propane would've been miserably slow, if it could have even been finished at all.

Back in my college days in the 1970s I put food on the table and gas in the tank by repairing golf clubs. Used a propane torch about 2 hours a day and had one I think was called a "turbo torch" or "tornado torch" or something. it had a stainless steel tube and did burn inside the tube. I went through a couple of bottles of propane a week and never had any noticeable erosion of the tube in the 4 or 5 years I used it.

CarlBoyd

The two I have are attached to adapter/extension hoses that I hook up to spare BBQ 20 pound tanks when I need heat. Gerry :-)} London, Canada

Jon, Brass melts at about 1980 F. SS melts well above 3100 F, some alloys like XB and inconel are even higher. That's why SS is used in blast furnaces as rolls, muffels and flame venturis. Your copper alloys are used to wick away the heat into the torch body, which they do much better than SS. Steve

Thanks Carl, I appreciated that. Sounds like yours held up fine, even got a good bit of usage, too!

Jon

Thanks Steve, and you're right (I was looking up Al/Brass just before the SS number, which let to my confusion). I did notice that the SS torch had a longer tube extending from the plastic handle; perhaps that gives it the additional distance to cool itself off.

About the only thing I don't like about the newer (stainless) torch is that the air inlet ports are a part of the plastic handle, whereas on the old brass unit they were upwards of the plastic handle, part of the metal just before the burn area.

I can't help but think that when the plastic breaks, the newer model is gonna be SOL, whereas on the old one, I'd just have to cobble up a new handle and reconnect the hose.

Jon

while we're on the subject of brazing and temperatures.... I recently had one heck of a time doing some brazing on a section of exhaust pipe. I have a bernzomatic mapp torch(pietzo w/ swirl tip) and it was barely hot enough to get the bronze to flow. the repair was chunky and incomplete. I gave up and used an old hobby size oxy/mps(mapp) torch(also Bernzomatic, the kind that uses the small cylinders, the oxy last only a few minutes and costs $10 a pop). I used the mapp (swirl) torch as preheat. still had difficulty.

now, I recall a few yrs ago my father had a brazing kit(Motomaster? CanadianTire brand) with a bottle of "brazing fuel" with a "brazing torch". it wasn't a swirl tip(rather it was long, bent, SS, rounded in at the end), but it seemed hotter and easier to braze with, unfortunately it was used up. the bottle was black, and just labeled "brazing fuel". anywhere I ask about such an animal I'm always told it was probably mapp.... but I don't get the same results using ye old yellow bottles and the self-same "brazing torch" I'd rather not have to go more industrial and buy a $400 pair of tanks for my here-to unused Harris torch kit(bought yrs ago, never used), just so I can do a little brazing from time to time. most of the work I do is mig, so I find it hard to justify the tanks.

sugestions? could the rod be the problem? too high a grade?

t.i.a.

-mark

The OP asked about A tank labelled "Brazing fuel" and to this I say: Most likely A air/acetylene "plumbers torch". They use A "B" tank which was code for bicycle.Apparently plumbers were to go on service calls on A bike in the old days. In the states most B tanks are labeled Prestolite which was an early manufacturer of headlights for automobiles. I bet if you take the tank to A welding supply shop they would swap it out for A full one. I have 4 or 5 between my home my dads place and my service truck. Most I bought at auctions and when I need A refill I take it into Toll Welding Supply in Blaine Minnesota and they just swap it out. I have never been asked for proof of ownership or been charged for A hydro test. I think it ran around 20 or 25 bucks to get my last one filled but that was 2 or 3 years ago.

Good Luck. HR "Doing A job right the first time gets the job done. Doing the job wrong fourteen times gives you job security" Anon.

This isn't what I learned. Way back when, vehicles had acetylene-powered headlights. The smallest cylinders were "MC" which stood for "motorcycle". The next larger ones were "B" cylinders which stood for "bus".

Grant

The usual color (in the US) for acetylene tanks is black, Mark. There are some common types of acetylene/air torches used in the HVAC trade to braze AC lines.

With air introduced into the acetylene flow path, it will burn very hot without making a lot of fluffy soot, like it does when the oxygen is turned off using an oxy/acetylene torch.

MAPP is becoming available in large bottles, but I've only used the disposable type small bottles.

I vaguely recall seeing a comparison chart showing various industrial fuel gasses and their heat output values. Some searching would probably find something similar.

MAPP gas is liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) mixed with methylacetylene-propadiene. In Australia, it is known as RazorGas.. (wikipedia)

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I'd rather not have to go more industrial and buy a $400 pair of tanks for my here-to unused Harris torch kit(bought yrs ago, never used), just so I can do a little brazing from time to time. most of the work I do is mig, so I find it hard to justify the tanks.

sugestions? could the rod be the problem? too high a grade?

t.i.a.

-mark

I think you will find that $ spent getting your oxyacetolyene torch able to work will be $ well spent - it is much faster, easier, and more versatile than propane/mapp

Grant: You could be right. I'm going what I learned in high school shop class 40 years ago. At any rate, I still think the so called "brazing gas" is acetylene in the OP's tank.

Regards HR "When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives A solution and is willing to take command,very often, this individual is crazy" Anon.

Those are both a joke - the Bernzomatic is like One Cubic Foot of Oxygen compressed at a few hundred PSI, totally worthless. And the Oxygen Generator that took the pyrolytic sticks are just as worthless.

Air-Acetylene torch, sold for plumbers and pipefitters - Prestolite being the most popular. Comes with the ~50 CF "B" Acetylene bottle, the smallest practical home bottle. I've done a LOT of silver braze with one where my boss said I needed Oxygen. Not if you know what you're doing...

(The ~10 CF "MC" Acetylene cylinder is another waste of time - since you can only withdraw 1/7 capacity per hour, the flow is too small for anything other than a motorcycle headlight - which for some fascinating reason is why it's called a MC Cylinder.)

You don't need to get the lease sized 200CF industrial tanks - a

50CF Oxygen and a B Acetylene should set you back $250 purchased brand new and filled, a LOT less if you haunt garage sales and pick up a used set. And they are yours forever - the smaller tanks are always owned.

( The big ones can be owned or leased, and that's where keeping the paperwork is important. Because if the tanks have a neck collar for a local supply house and you can't come up with the paperwork that says you own a set when you take them in for a refill, they can take them back as stolen.... )

Harris and others make Air-Acetylene torch handles and tips, and they can be used with any welding regulator and tank. So you don't have to find an 'Antique' Prestolite.

Just be careful - Read up on care and feeding of bottles. Go slamming and banging them around and break the matrix inside the acetylene bottle, and they can't be refilled and must be destroyed. Can't let the acetone get out or contact between acetylene and pure copper - copper acetylide salts go BOOM. Can't let line pressure rise above 15 PSI outside the cylinder, or the gas can go BOOM! Must have arrestors in the gas lines, let that shockwave get back to the tank, and the BOOM! gets real big.

Oxygen can't be treated cavalierly either - Can't get any oil or grease at ALL In the Oxygen path that isn't specially formulated for the use (and used in controlled quantities) or it can make mayhem too.

And sometimes when the surface you are trying to braze will not tin for nothing or nobody, you have to get it hot /then/ scrub it down with more flux and a stainless wire brush. And all of a sudden it decides to clean up and wet with a vengeance.

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now, I recall a few yrs ago my father had a brazing kit(Motomaster? CanadianTire brand) with a bottle of "brazing fuel" with a "brazing torch". it wasn't a swirl tip(rather it was long, bent, SS, rounded in at the end), but it seemed hotter and easier to braze with, unfortunately it was used up. the bottle was black, and just labeled "brazing fuel". anywhere I ask about such an animal I'm always told it was probably mapp.... but I don't get the same results using ye old yellow bottles and the self-same "brazing torch" I'd rather not have to go more industrial and buy a $400 pair of tanks for my here-to unused Harris torch kit(bought yrs ago, never used), just so I can do a little brazing from time to time. most of the work I do is mig, so I find it hard to justify the tanks.

sugestions? could the rod be the problem? too high a grade?

----------------- response below --------------------------------

Well, I am not a welder (IANAW), but in my "research" for this torch I found these guys using the previous version of the Bernzomatic (JTH7 - Mapp/Air) to build bicycle frames:

So, at least from those guys, mapp/air can be used to braze.

In any case, it looks like I'm probably going to pick up the newer version mapp/air torch. I noticed that the forge guy is using one on his mini-forge, and seems to like it better than the old one, which is good enough for me.

Jon

I have a couple of types of these, I only use propane in them, though, I have O/A equipment for the really hot requirements. On one, the burner will glow dull red after extended running, it's a "turbo" or "tornado" type of burner, and even with propane, it's much hotter than the older 50s-60s Bernzomatic-style burners. Those old ones just got stuffed in the bottom of an old tool box. All that happens with the stainless burners is that they get a nice blue color, which doesn't affect functioning at all. Unless you use it 24/7, I think your concerns are groundless. I've got one I've used extensively for 10 years.

Stan

My Goss canister-mounted torch always glows red - it's supposed to - and it never hurts it any. I've seen thousands of motorcycle exhaust pipes which are blue up where they get real hot and it doesn't seem to hurt them much either.

Grant