Making an anvil

I'm planning on building a propane forge and am wanting an anvil. I'm just starting in all this and know nothing. Being poor buying a new anvil is out of the question and I'm not wanting to wait till I find one at an auction as that could take forever. My brother suggested I make the basic shape out of a series of sections I can cut out of 3/16 steel on a CNC plasma cutter I run. He said weld them together and then weld some tool steel to the top. Is this a practical idea? What about a temp anvil till I find an auction anvil? Fella at work, a welder, suggested using Nickle(think it was) rod and machine it flat. I have acess to a mill. I can't get back on the internet for maybe a week to answere any of y'alls comments but I'll check maybe next weekend. Kenny

Reply to
Butter
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If you do this and it works, definately get back on here and let us know. I've thought about the same project, but managed to find a used anvil that is sufficient for now. No idea if welding a stack of plate together would be tough enough to keep from delaminating when you're beating on it, but it's a tempting idea. My thought on it would require a lot more work, but might result in a better finished product- I would cut 1/4" obrounds in each plate pretty close to one another, staggered on each layer. Fill up all the slots with weld, grind flat, then move on to the next layer and repeat until you've got it all built up.

At least then, you've got a lot more weld holding the thing together, and it is (at least, hopefully) less likely to have hollow spots due to the plate warping when welding it.

I think rather than trying to weld tool steel to the top, you might want to look into having a welder cover the top with hardfacing rod. If I am correct, you won't be machining either of them with a mill- that's a job for a grinder.

Reply to
Prometheus

I wouldn't expect that to hold up, but I'm not a welder just an amature blacksmith. I suggust you check iforgeiron.com under the blueprints section for homemade anvils and find the ABANA (Artist Blacksmith Assn of Northe America assuming you're in N. Amer.) site and check for a local chapter.

Where are you and what other resources do you have? A charcoal forge may prove cheaper to build and fuel than propane.

ron

Reply to
r payne

i remember (about 50 years ago) wanting an anvil. as a ten year old i started forging on a chunk of granite. when i found out that rocks don't hold up to well as an anvil, some how i got my hands on a short piece of railroad track. it worked much better ! that was also my first lesson in blacksmithing. you try something, fumble around until you find something or a method that works. in today's world there is a lot of scrap around. a guy can make a lot of tools an self teach on any old chunk of steel. don't let not having an anvil stop you from forging. have fun, mark

Reply to
Mark Finn

Hey Kenny,

My first anvil was a lump of 3" diameter steel rod, embedded in a small bucket of concrete. It was only ever used for knives and small jobs, but it was fine.

A chunk of steel or a railway coupling will do until you can afford a wonder anvil.

Regards Charles

Reply to
Chilla

Hi Ron,

A charcoal/coal forge can be the cheaper option. I've said this one before, 2 x elbows, 2 x length of pipe, some rebar, and air source and a hole in the ground. That's probably as cheap as you can get for charcoal/coal. Estimate $20 AUD, without the air source and including some charcoal. The air source can be a vacuum cleaner with a blow, and a way to adjust the air flow. You can probably do really cheap if you are good at scrounging.

Cheap for propane, is a JTH-7 Bernzomatic hose torch, some pol adapters, and a K26 fire brick, and some wire, is probably the cheapest you can do for propane. Estimate about $110 AUD, and the torch can be used for other applications.

Oh and there's f*ck-all construction skill required for either ;-)

Regards Charles

Reply to
Chilla

I think you'd be better off looking around for something to use like a piece of railroad track until you get a feel for blacksmithing. If you take the laminated route, you will be doing a lot of grinding anyway, so why not do it on the railroad track? Railroad track is measured by pounds per yard. "120 pound" used to be the standard for main line rail. 2 feet of it would make a pretty good start. I have heard that the new main line rail is 150 pound. That would be even better. Of course, lighter rail will work, too. You just have to fasten it well to a stump, etc. so it won't move around. Look around the internet for discussions on how to dress it to shape.

Find other local blacksmiths. Make some connections. If you have any way to do a few "G" jobs with that plasma cutter, you should be able to trade for just about anything. Many blacksmiths have extra equipment to sell or trade, or loan.

As another poster asked: Where are you? You may be right in the backyard of some of the folks who watch this group. There are at least

70 blacksmith clubs around the USA. Locate your closest ABANA affiliate and contact them. Join or visit the one closest to you. Show some honest, humble interest and you will be surprised how accomodating these folks can be.

Pete Stanaitis

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Butter wrote:

Reply to
spaco

Unless you are getting the materials and time for free, you are better off buying an anvil.

Got a Harbour Freight store near you? They sell some east european cast steel anvils that are supposed to be quite decent, or at least they did.

Stay away from cast iron, for the most part.

There ar lots of anvils around, but it takes a little legwork or luck to find the deals. Decide what your time is worth, too.

Cheers Trevor Jones

Reply to
Trevor Jones

Butter held forth in news:1179608831.564864.211130 @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

Kenny,

Check your local scrap yard and ask what they have in large dimension steel. Scrap prices are at all time highs so it may be pricey. I've heard as high as $160 per ton. Keep an eye on Ebay as well. I was lucky and caught one at a local aution. I have to tease some nickels and dimes together to buy insulation for a propane forge.I found a freon tank in the dumpster at work. YEE HAA!!

Good luck.

Reply to
Bobba Lou

Any big piece of steel will do the job to get started. Short chunks of railroad rail are common along the track routes. Keep an eye open for work crews rebuilding the tracks (or a train wreck) and you'll find track small enough to use. I bought one of the Harbor Freight anvils at about 120lb for about 60 dollars and it's ok. Dings up easier than my track anvil but it has other features that I like - so does my track. They each have their uses. If you've got track and a band saw you can make some nifty tools too . Even I beam can be used to get started on.

GA

Reply to
Kyle J.

Lots of folks use a section of railroad track. The heavier the better. You can undercut the ends and shape them to suit. Works pretty well. Check scrap yards for rails or if there is a railroad maintenance shop in your area they would probably let you have 3 or 4 feet of it for free. Good luck.

73 Gary

Gary Pewitt N9ZSV Sturgeon's Law "Ninety percent of everything is crap"

Reply to
Gary Pewitt

Kenny,

You might find better results if you can make your anvil out of thick stock, especially if it is one solid piece. I realize this may be harder to come by, but several indivual layers with voids might give you a dead anvil. A good anvil has a nice bounce that helps you get more work done. I found an article that might be of interest. Try this:

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This article should help get you started.

Paul

Reply to
paul_bilodeau1

If you're trying to get an anvil as cheaply as possible, you'd probable be better off just using any heavy piece of steel you can find. People make some incredible things with some really crude equipment, and I wouldn't worry about the anvil too much. As you do more you will probable want better equipment, but you don't have to worry about that right now. Of course, a lot of it will depend on what you plan on doing. If you're planning on just making knives, a full anvil is probably more than you'll need, anyway.

I'm not saying that making an anvil won't work -- I'd bet that it will be fine. Just that it seems like a lot of work for something that you probably won't keep for a while. You'll probably be better off just buying a 110 pound anvil from Harbor Freight.

Also, try talking to some local blacksmithing groups. They might know of some local resources, like good junk yards.

Reply to
jpolaski

Paul, thanks a bunch for posting the web page. I hope it helps Kenny, I know it has really helped me. What a fund of useful information.

73 Gary

Gary Pewitt N9ZSV Sturgeon's Law "Ninety percent of everything is crap"

Reply to
Gary Pewitt

Last time I sold "tin" they -gave- me 10c a pound. ($200/ton)

Same for zinc, 10c ...which was something I would just give them since it wasn't worth weighing before at 1c.

Alvin in AZ

Reply to
alvinj

Yep, I used to collect nice pieces and give them away. The SP's official rules were "no rail sold". ;)

Alvin in AZ retired signal ape

Reply to
alvinj

"As another poster asked: Where are you? You may be right in the backyard of some of the folks who watch this group"

I'm in Arkansas in Cleburne co. I'm going to try this idea of the laminated plates welded together for an anvil. The material is free, I need welding practice and have nothing to lose. I'm going to see about welding with the nickol rod of the face. I'll take some pictures and post them when I get going; As for the forge I'm going with a propane forge for now since I need something portable, and can get most of the materials free. Someone asked what resourses I have.. I work in a weld shop where we make large (up to 8ft OD)tanks. I run the CNC plasma table, Sub arc and learning the 8ft rools we have. I can get free steel. Brother has a machine shop(I'm a machinist). Also have welder friends who will help. I'm looking for a metal scrap yard in the area for material I don't have cheap acess too. There is one in Clarksville, ar but need one closer. I'm also going to start one on one classes with blacksmith at Fork Center in Mt VIew hopefully this week. Kenny

Reply to
Butter

Welders everywhere will vicariously cuss you for that nickel rod! It doesn't bond worth a hoot to structural steel and it's a b*tch to get off. A couple of weeks ago I had an adventure with a friend's hydraulic log splitter where someone decided that nickel filler would be the fancy way. Under stress it lifted right out of the steel like concrete poured in a groove in the dirt. Spent the better part of two days grinding all that crap out and then welding it properly.

If I were looking for a hard face, I might try hardface rods. I'd test it on a small piece first, to make sure it isn't too brittle. I don't think it will be, considering the beating it gets on heavy equipment parts but just to be sure... A layer of hardface nicely surface ground might just be the cat's patoot!

Anyway, I think your idea will work. If you're building it up from plate, may I suggest drilling the plates and plug welding each to the preceding plate? Scatter the holes from plate to plate so that one weld doesn't end up on top of the next. This technique should result in a much more "bouncy" stack than plates with tiny spaces between them, as would be the case with edge welding only. After you finish welding, you might also consider stress-relieving the whole assembly by heating it red hot and allowing to cool slowly.

John

Reply to
Neon John

seems like a lot of good advise here. if you are determined to go ahead with your layered anvil, may i suggest bigger is better. if you have access to free material, why not make a four or five hundred pound anvil. have fun, mark

Reply to
Mark Finn

Hi Kenny-

I did this project tonight, only I made a swage block instead of an anvil. Here's what I came up with.

As far as yield goes, I ended up with a 15.5" x 10" x 3" swage using one 4' x 4' x 1/4" mild steel plate. You'll get more out of it using

3/16", of course, but 1/4" is what I had handy. It comes out to something just under 125 pounds (the swage has cutouts, so it's not a full solid block)

Going off the advice of our welder, who is very good at what he does, I cut the plates with 1/2" half-round cutouts every inch along the perimeter, and 1/2" plug holes which were offset from plate to plate. In the case of the swage block, I also cut gradually smaller circles in each plate to get some rough dish shapes which I'm going to grind smooth tomorrow. I'm not sure how your plasma cutter compares to my laser, (It's probably faster, actually) but it took about 45 minutes to run the sheet.

Since he was busy with some other stuff, I did the welding on it (and I am not a masterful welder in any sense of the word). It took about

2 hours, with occasional stops to change sheets on the laser on the other end of the shop. I lined up each plate and clamped them down, then filled the plug holes and welded the inside edges of my dished cutouts and ground the top of the plate smooth before moving on the the next one (be careful with this- I started to get a little rushed as the shift was drawing to a close, and it's very easy to get some small gaps- I have two on one side that are about .010" wide, probably from weld spatter I missed. Make sure you have a few clamps, as the plates will start to warp a little from the heat, especially when you have got a good base built up and it's steaming hot.

After that, I welded up the cutouts on the side, and filled them a little more than flush with the surface. It takes about three passes. When the sucker was done, it was HOT. I had another guy help me carry it out to the parking lot with a couple of giant C-clamps, and let it sit under the garden hose for about 20 minutes before it was cool to the touch, and I suspect that the core is still pretty warm even now- it steamed for at least 10 minutes, even with a good flow of cold water running over it continously, so plan accordingly- especially if it's gov't work, and you don't want to leave it sitting around to cool.

All in all, it was not that hard to do with a wire-feed welder (though I still have the grinding to do, so I may change my tune yet,) As I was working on it and thinking about the project overall, it occured to me that if a guy was making an anvil, I had been thinking about it the wrong way- instead of building it up in layers like a cake, from the base to the top, I think you'd be a lot better off building it from vertical plates cut to the anvil's profile- that way, you'd be avoiding a lot of the trouble that gaps could cause. A good layer of hardfacing rod on the top would hopefully keep it from delaminating, and cover any gaps that might be there.

I know that still doesn't fill in any gaps about how well or how long this thing is going to hold up, but I figure that a brief description of the process might be handy for you. After I use it a bit, I'll let the group know if it was a worthwhile project, or if it just breaks apart once I start hammering on it. I got very good weld penetration (I know what to look for, I'm just not that good at welding pretty), so hopefully it's enough.

For the price, (free) it can't hardly be bad- though it's not likely to be as good as one that is cast in a professional foundry.

If I were doing it again, I think I may have tried sprinkling borax between the plates and trying to give it a quick and dirty forge weld by heating each plate with the oxy-acetaline torch as I built it up and then welded it with the wirefeed. I have no idea if that would have worked, but it's worth considering- it certainly couldn't hurt anything. Even a half-assed partial forge weld would be better than none at all, if the bulk of your anvil's strength is coming from an electric welder.

Also- you'll almost certainly forget something important if you just wing it with the design. I'm already regretting that I forgot to put in a hardie hole or two in the block, as it's going to be a lot of work to do it now, if I even do it at all. Wouldn't be a bad idea to find some dimensions and copy an existing anvil before you start.

But for the investment in time, it's a hell of a deal. Swages and anvils are more or less similar in price, and I figure that for what I ended up with, and even if I would have had to pay for the full cost of the materials, I basically paid myself about $100 an hour to do the project, and that's not half bad for a shop rat.

Reply to
Prometheus

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