Better quality can be a bad thing....(long but important)

Ever since China started competing against American machine shops, suddenly America changes the rules and says "it's all about the quality".
We always change the rules when it seems we might lose, that's part of being American. (why we always win)
However, since everything is relative, quality is really hard to define...so ISO9000 shows up in our lives. Basically a definition of quality. Or a definition of "quality improvement". Or something like that anyway. (extorsion)
But there's a real problem with that. Quality isn't always what is wanted. I know it sounds strange, but it's true, even at the same price.
Here's an example: You build a car for 10,000. It's equivelent to a mercedes benz. Very high quality. Your competitor builds a car for 5,000. It's a pinto.
At first we think everyone wants a mercedes but some cant afford it, so they settle for the pinto. Everyone agrees with that.
Here's where it gets tricky in the machining trades. Not everyone wants a mercedes, sometimes they want a cheap car. So...like the place I work and lots of other quality driven shops they build the guy who paid for the pinto a "mercedes", thinking he will be very happy paying for the pinto but getting a mercedes.
That is very bad thinking and a good way to really piss off your customer.
The customer paid for a cheap car...period! If you go ahead and make him a mercedes(on your own dime) he will be MAJORLY pissed off, because HE PAID FOR A CHEAP CAR DAMNIT!.
Here's what your customer will think: "I didn't want a mercedes, I wanted the cheap car, they charged me too much!" Yep, even though you absorbed the extra expence the customer will always think if you made him the cheaper car it would of costed him less...hence...you ripped him off.
*********** Here's my personal experience proving this... We built a mold for a bullet maker, 32 cavities. It was a gage. It was a work of art. WE LOST OUR AZZ!!! But...the owners are ok with it, this job will mean literally a hundred more at 70 grand a piece. I seen the logic, lose a little to get the future jobs, made sence to me.
But here's what happened, the customer said if you want the next one drop the price, we are paying too much. So we dropped it 100 dollars a cavity. Got the job and built another gage. AND LOST OUR AZZ! Customer called back and said your ripping us off, drop the price if you want the next one. Again we dropped 100$ a cavity, got the job and LOST OUR AZZ! This went on for like 4 or 5 times at least. We started at 1200 a cavity. Now we are at 800$ a cavity...losing our azzez each time.
I get called in the office, I was told they will pay 685$ a cavity, and Im supposed to figure out how to make it that cheap. So I talk to the customer and try to get things I can slide on, surface finish, accuracy, etc...
Then it dawned on me, this guy is pissed at us, like we are ripping him off. This is a giant worldwide company and this guy is just a salesman, but I can tell they are pissed. So I figured it out, we aren't giving them what they want. So I tell my bosses the salesmen are getting into trouble from their bosses for having gages built, price has no meaning, they just dont want gages. So...against the grain of the shop, we build this piece of shit mold. It ran great, made a great part, but we used a course wheel when grinding the parting line blocks, and made the edm finish a LOT rougher. Vents were ground and had some burn marks in them, stuff not chamfered, etc... (this was very hard to do where I worked, very political but I pulled it off, even though I was treated like I was sinking the ship).
Well, next thing you know we get a letter hanging on the board that literally said "Finally, your guys gave us what we wanted, awesome tool!".
Now we make 3-4 per year ever since at 900 a cavity.
************ Now its a few years later...and guess what? We built three of those molds this year and LOST OUR AZZEZ on them because...they are gages, they are beautiful. When I bring it up..I am told we don't build junk by the current management. *************
Now, put yourself in my shoes, do you just ignore it, paid by the hour gimmic? Cry like a little bitch to the owners?
Frustrated incorporated. LLC
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
vinny wrote:

It does kinda kick you in the balls when you put your blood and sweat into something, go out of your way to make a customer happy, and they think your screwing them.. It's sad how some things happen..
I think I would say something to the current mgmt, but wouldn't go over the top.. Just say enough so when the customer comes back and says "the price is too high, you need to drop it" you can say I told you so..
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
vinny wrote:

Sounds to me like you need to open your own shop.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
vinny wrote:

I actually forwarded this to my boss and he asked if you started looking for a job yet because if you keep loosing your ass on jobs, doesn't seem like the company will be in biz much longer.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Give me a clue, who is the bullet maker? I handload a lot. Private message to my reply-to will work. I check the headers on this spam catcher address before deleting.
Since you used the word mold, I'm thinking molten lead aloys. Maybe have them run it send it back for rework if they don't like it would make their price point. Just have them mark the cavities +/- deviation from desired diameters.
Wes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

The mold business sucks. Find another area of machining where you don't have to deal with this kind of nonsense.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA http://jonbanquer.blogspot.com /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Give it time, there Jonny boy. It will get easier when you learn to work with surfaces.......
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
vinny wrote:

All the shops are feeling this. We make turbo machinery, blades, blisks, impellers, etc... Even in this nitch, market price and delivery are king. It is a given that they are complex tough to machine parts that are "made to print".
John Carroll is correct: Buyers are buying "value". Why pay for a Hermle when a Haas will do? 32 finish when a 64 is good enough? That's why Walmart is king. Btw, it is the buyer most times we deal with - not some crafty engineer type who could possibly appreciate your efforts for high quality. Boeings Gold, Silver, and Bronze supplier ratings evenly weighted on value as well as quality and delivery.
This is one that is the biggest changes for me in my 30+ years. We always exceeded the customers quality expectations. Nowadays, it is important to meet their quaility expectations AND deliver on time and at a good value (perceived or otherwise).
-- Bill
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

This is why a janitor will never make 100K in almost all companies. Good enough can be had for far less.
Smart people (hopefully) are designing around good enough if they are good enough. ;)
Wes
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks Buddy!
PS Don't LIE so much Gollum.
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Thanks Buddy!
PS Don't LIE so much Gollum.
http://vsmichelle1.multiply.com/video/item/3/NotJustAHumanProblem.wmv
Funny video......MMMMMM............Michelle, rottweiler, Transsexual, does he/she live in Chula Vista, CA?
"I have been spending weekends in San Diego with my new bitch, Michelle who lives in Chula Vista." -Jon Banquer-
"Michele is very pretty and so was Rosanna. If you drink enough" -Jon Banquer-
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jon_banquer wrote: I've counted to 10 and would just say - thankyou. Hopefully you'll have a fix for me soon so I can finish this job.
MecSoft Support Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 1048 Location: Irvine, CA, USA In future try counting to 10 BEFORE flying off the handle. And I thought you brits were more civil than this. Development was nice enough to incorporate the fixes into the Rhino 3.0. To get this fix:
1) Download www.rhinocam.com/Downloads/RhinoCam.rhp
2) Copy this to the plug-ins folder of Rhino 3.0, under RhinoCAM 1.0.
3) Bring up Rhino and RhinoCAM and try it.
I strongly suggest upgrading to Rhino 4.0. We will NOT be updating RhinoCAM for Rhino 3.0 in the future.
whistler Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 36 Location: UK MecSoft Support wrote: In future try counting to 10 BEFORE flying off the handle. And I thought you brits were more civil than this. Development was nice enough to incorporate the fixes into the Rhino 3.0.
I'd respectfully ask you not to lecture me and remind you that I am a customer.
I wonder also whether on reflection you might have considered it wiser to count to ten before disgracefully bringing my nationality into this?
As far as development being "nice enough" - I would have thought that supporting the product was a part of their job - am I mistaken and is support only a favour you choose or choose not to grant?
MecSoft Support wrote:
I strongly suggest upgrading to Rhino 4.0. We will NOT be updating RhinoCAM for Rhino 3.0 in the future.
I bought Rhino3, RhinoCAM and RhinoArt from Mecsoft in good faith just 1 year ago - it's a shame you didn't mention then that support was soon to be withdrawn.
whistlerPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:30 am
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 36 Location: UK MecSoft Support wrote: In future try counting to 10 BEFORE flying off the handle. And I thought you brits were more civil than this. Development was nice enough to incorporate the fixes into the Rhino 3.0.
I'd respectfully ask you not to lecture me and remind you that I am a customer.
I wonder also whether on reflection you might have considered it wiser to count to ten before disgracefully bringing my nationality into this?
As far as development being "nice enough" - I would have thought that supporting the product was a part of their job - am I mistaken and is support only a favour you choose or choose not to grant?
MecSoft Support wrote:
I strongly suggest upgrading to Rhino 4.0. We will NOT be updating RhinoCAM for Rhino 3.0 in the future.
I bought Rhino3, RhinoCAM and RhinoArt from Mecsoft in good faith just 1 year ago - it's a shame you didn't mention then that support was soon to be withdrawn.
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jon_banquer wrote: Thanks Buddy!
PS Don't LIE so much Gollum.
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: Thanks Buddy!
PS Don't LIE so much Gollum.
http://vsmichelle1.multiply.com/video/item/3/NotJustAHumanProblem.wmv
Funny video......MMMMMM............Michelle, rottweiler, Transsexual, does he/she live in Chula Vista, CA?
"I have been spending weekends in San Diego with my new bitch, Michelle who lives in Chula Vista." -Jon Banquer-
"Michele is very pretty and so was Rosanna. If you drink enough" -Jon Banquer-
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
jon_banquer wrote:
Quote:
Although MecSoft seems to be quite busy re-inventing solid modeling and VMCAM improvements are on the back burner.
Comments such as these are quite unwarranted. Your allegation shows both a lack of knowledge of the actual facts and a lack of common courtesy. Remember that this is a forum that is moderated by MecSoft and you have agreed when signing on to abide by the rules of this forum. This is NOT an open forum where you can say whatever you want. You are a guest in this forum and we expect you to behave as one. Unsubstantiated statements such as these will not be tolerated.
We do our best at MecSoft to take care of our customer's requests and are quite open to your suggestions. We are quite proud of our support services and our record of continual improvements of our products. So we do appreciate all the constructive comments that we have received from our users in the past. Please continue sending your comments, requests and suggestions in. But also remember to keep it constructive.
--

John R. Carroll
www.machiningsolution.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
. This is NOT an

But Usenet is....MECSOFT sux!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lol, so who is mecsoft anyway?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

http://blog.novedge.com/2007/06/an_interview_wi_2.html
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.