280V motor on 230V circuit

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wrote:

In theory, it's 230 on a single phase - neutral circuit here in the UK now, but in practice, it's actually nearer the previously accepted 240v for the most part ...
Arfa
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| wrote: |>>> |>>>> Deodiaus wrote: |>>>> |>>>>> I have a broken pool motor [magnetek y56y] which will cost a bundle to |>>>>> fix |>>>>> or repair. |>>>>> While doing a search on the web, I found the same model (really cheap) |>>>>> but |>>>>> wired for 280V, instead of the 230 V load that my wiring is supplies. |>>>>> Now, I was thinking of buying the cheap 280V model and installing it |>>>>> instead. Aside from rotating at a different speed and |>>>>> maybe some power inefficiencies, are there any other drawbacks of |>>>>> using the 280V model |>>>>> instead? |>>>> |>>>> are you sure it isn't 208 ? |>>>> |>>>> --http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5 " |>>> |>>> |>>> I'd be suspicious that the 280V was a misreading somehow of 230V. |>> that sounds more plausible. |>> |> I'm a little confused about a 230 volt circuit. In what part of the world |> does the utility supply 230v? |> |> jak | | In theory, it's 230 on a single phase - neutral circuit here in the UK now, | but in practice, it's actually nearer the previously accepted 240v for the | most part ...
Is the grounded conductor in a 2-wire 230/240 volt system fed to each home referred to as "neutral" even in UK?
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Yes. - but where is it grounded. Formerly it was grounded only at the star (centre) point of the local transformer, but more recently is it being grounded (again) at the domestic intake point.
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     snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net writes:

Yes, although we have 3 types of supply arrangement for earthing used on public supplies. (Note that on 240V, there's often far more distance between the consumer and the transformer than you'll find in the US on 120V supplies.)
TN-S: Neutral is grounded only at the transformer, but a separate earth conductor is carried in the supply network and brought into the home from that same grounding point.
TN-C-S (also known as Protective Multiple Earthing): A single PEN (Protective Earth and Neutral) conductor from the transformer serves as both neutral and ground connection in the supply network. The PEN conductor must also be earthed regularly throughout the supply network, and it requires very high integrity connections to ensure the risk of it breaking is very low (this is a legal requirement). Once the supply reaches the consumer, the PEN conductor is split into separate neutral and earth conductors in the installation.
TT: The supplier grounds the neutral as for TN-S, but doesn't provide the consumer with any earthing connection. The consumer needs to make their own ground connection for earthing (and shouldn't cross-connect this to the neutral). TT is only found on old rural overhead supply networks, and they are upgraded to TN-C-S when due for refurbishment.
Even if the supplier does provide an earth connection (TN-S or TN-C-S), the installation can choose to ignore it and be wired as a TT system. This is sometimes done for submains to outbuildings and outdoor electrics, even when the main installation is TN-S or TN-C-S.
These earthing system arrangements are covered in the uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/electrical.html#system
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In the USA they ground the Neutral at the transformer and do not run a seperate ground conductor to the house. There is however a ground rod driven which is tied to the neutral at the entrance to the house. ]
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| Yes, although we have 3 types of supply arrangement for earthing | used on public supplies. (Note that on 240V, there's often far | more distance between the consumer and the transformer than | you'll find in the US on 120V supplies.)
Our supplies to homes are also 240V. We just ground it in a different way through the use of a center tap and an additional wire, which gets the neutral designation. For an equivalent _balanced_ load in the US, we should see no more voltage drop than in the UK. And that voltage drop will be effectively halved between one of the hots and the neutral.
| TN-S: | Neutral is grounded only at the transformer, but a separate | earth conductor is carried in the supply network and brought | into the home from that same grounding point. | | TN-C-S (also known as Protective Multiple Earthing): | A single PEN (Protective Earth and Neutral) conductor from | the transformer serves as both neutral and ground connection | in the supply network. The PEN conductor must also be earthed | regularly throughout the supply network, and it requires very | high integrity connections to ensure the risk of it breaking | is very low (this is a legal requirement). Once the supply | reaches the consumer, the PEN conductor is split into separate | neutral and earth conductors in the installation. | | TT: | The supplier grounds the neutral as for TN-S, but doesn't | provide the consumer with any earthing connection. The | consumer needs to make their own ground connection for earthing | (and shouldn't cross-connect this to the neutral). | TT is only found on old rural overhead supply networks, and | they are upgraded to TN-C-S when due for refurbishment. | | Even if the supplier does provide an earth connection (TN-S | or TN-C-S), the installation can choose to ignore it and be | wired as a TT system. This is sometimes done for submains | to outbuildings and outdoor electrics, even when the main | installation is TN-S or TN-C-S. | | These earthing system arrangements are covered in the uk.d-i-y | FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/electrical/electrical.html#system
Nice info!
I'm curious about this: is it legal in the UK for a home to feed their supply into their own transformer and ground the secondary at that point as a new system?
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wrote:

One common neutral that is grounded back at the nearest transformer substation, and three phases, fed singly to homes in a reasonably 'balanced' way (loading-wise). So one side of the street may be fed from one phase, and the other side of the street from a different phase, then further up the street, some more houses connected to the remaining phase and so on. Each house also has a protective ground connection. Generally, no 'pole pigs' except in rural areas. For the most part, each collection of several hundred houses, are connected underground to a small building containing 3 phase transformers. I think that the input to these stations is around 11kV, also underground. The 'hot' side of the supply is usually known as "live" in the UK, but is sometimes also known as "phase".
I'm not an electrical engineer, but that's pretty much the basis of the UK domestic distribution system. Commercial premises usually have a full three phase plus neutral connection to the network.
Arfa
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jakdedert wrote:

UK ! 230/240 V
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jakdedert wrote:

Most countries are 230 Volts (50 Hz) with some exceptions, such as North America, parts of South America, Japan, and a few others. Nearly all of Europe is standardized on 230 Volts 50 Hz, although outlet/plug shapes still vary from country to country.
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Europe.
I also noticed just last week that Malaysia and Singapore use 230V (@50Hz).
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Continental Europe used to have 220 volts (before that it was 127 volts in some places), the UK used to have 240 volts. Nowadays, the common voltage is 230 volts -10% +6%.
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It has changed, the voltage is now close to 230V, at least in Sweden.
I guess the sloppiness was specified to allow a gradual switch from 220/240 to 230 and still be within spec.
Residential power in Norway is normally 230V three phase btw, instead of 400V three phase. Their 230V outlets are two phase and ground instead of one phase, neutral and ground. Their three phase outlets therefore are blue instead of red and have four prongs instead of five.
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If you read my comment you will see that I agree that the new spec covers the old voltages. I do not agree with your statement that "nothing has changed". We had 220V before and we now have 230V, so the actual voltage has definitely changed.
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writes

In the UK, we had 240V. We now have err..... 240V. There may be places where it really has been reduced to 230V, but I've never been anywhere where I had occasion to measure the mains voltage, and didn't get around 240V - certainly not sufficiently different for you to notice the difference.
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In alt.engineering.electrical Ian Jackson
| writes
|> |>> Thomas Tornblom wrote: |>>>
|>>>
|>>> >>
|>>> >> > I'm a little confused about a 230 volt circuit. In what part of the |>>> >> > world does the utility supply 230v? |>>> >> |>>> >> Continental Europe used to have 220 volts (before that it was 127 |>>> >>volts in |>>> >> some places), the UK used to have 240 volts. Nowadays, the common voltage |>>> >> is 230 volts -10% +6%. |>>> > |>>> > |>>> > In other words, nothing has changed. They just wrote sloppier specs. |>>> |>>> It has changed, the voltage is now close to 230V, at least in Sweden. |>>> |>>> I guess the sloppiness was specified to allow a gradual switch from |>>> 220/240 to 230 and still be within spec. |>>> |>> Do the math. The specifications allow continued use of the old |>> standard n each country. |> |>If you read my comment you will see that I agree that the new spec |>covers the old voltages. I do not agree with your statement that |>"nothing has changed". We had 220V before and we now have 230V, so the |>actual voltage has definitely changed. | | In the UK, we had 240V. We now have err..... 240V. | There may be places where it really has been reduced to 230V, but I've | never been anywhere where I had occasion to measure the mains voltage, | and didn't get around 240V - certainly not sufficiently different for | you to notice the difference.
What I have heard is that teh distribution system is not changing, but new service installations will be supplied with 230V unless 240V is specifically requested ... after some point in time that may not have come, yet. What I heard is they don't expect to have all of UK changed over for many decades, and maybe even a century or so.
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| Residential power in Norway is normally 230V three phase btw, instead | of 400V three phase. Their 230V outlets are two phase and ground | instead of one phase, neutral and ground. Their three phase outlets | therefore are blue instead of red and have four prongs instead of five.
Is this the system where the voltage is 133 volts relative to ground and 230 volts between phases (and formerly 127 volts relative to ground and 220 volts between phases)?
If they still use that system, then I'm interested in buying a UPS designed for that. But it is my understanding it is phased out in cities and hard to find anymore in rural locations.
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On May 13, 10:30 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Since I'm posting from GoogleGroups I can't respond to Phil, but the rest of you can be enlightened.
In 120/240 or similar systems there is not the freedom to choose this ratio. The wiring of the source transformer determines it. As others have noted, in the "Edison" U.S. system the source is a center tapped transformer with the center tap grounded. This makes a two phase system with each 120v "leg" 180 degrees out of phase with the other one. The ratio of the high voltage (240v) and the low voltage (120v) is always therefore 2:1.
In a three phase system there will be three transformers with secondaries (one for each phase) wired in a "star" or "Y" configuration. This is necessary because you need the center point of the "star" or "Y" to be ground for each low voltage phase. If you wire with a "delta" configuration there is no central grounding point available for the individual phases. IN three phase circuits the relationship between that individual phases to ground (say 120v) and the voltage measured between phases is not arbitrary. It is always determined by the square root of 3. Hence the between phase voltages being sqrt 3 x 120 = 208V. Just like the two phase system these ratios are determined by physics and can't be arbitrarily set.
Of course there is the issue that electric companies often will name a voltage one thing while actually supplying an other for small variations about the "standard" voltage.
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| Since I'm posting from GoogleGroups I can't respond to Phil, but the | rest of you can be enlightened.
Actually, I do see the ones the respond to my own posts. I think the reader does that to keep the threading intact. New posts I won't see. And that is what most of the spam is (I've seen some spammers that do followups to other posts).
| In 120/240 or similar systems there is not the freedom to choose this | ratio. The wiring of the source transformer determines it. As others | have noted, in the "Edison" U.S. system the source is a center tapped | transformer with the center tap grounded. This makes a two phase | system with each 120v "leg" 180 degrees out of phase with the other | one. The ratio of the high voltage (240v) and the low voltage (120v) | is always therefore 2:1. | | In a three phase system there will be three transformers with | secondaries (one for each phase) wired in a "star" or "Y" | configuration. This is necessary because you need the center point of | the "star" or "Y" to be ground for each low voltage phase. If you wire | with a "delta" configuration there is no central grounding point | available for the individual phases. IN three phase circuits the | relationship between that individual phases to ground (say 120v) and | the voltage measured between phases is not arbitrary. It is always | determined by the square root of 3. Hence the between phase voltages | being sqrt 3 x 120 = 208V. Just like the two phase system these | ratios are determined by physics and can't be arbitrarily set.
There is no more or less option to choose once you have either system. The choice you have is between the systems. If you have single phase, you only get 2.0 as a ratio. If you have three phase, you only get 1.7320508 as a ratio.
| Of course there is the issue that electric companies often will name a | voltage one thing while actually supplying an other for small | variations about the "standard" voltage.
They call it 208 volts, but it's closer to 207.8460969 :-)
Precise voltage is not really practical. The voltage standard is a target to stay near.
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