Backfeeding with a portable generator - REAL safety concerns???

NO. I'm hoping that if you undertake to back feed your houses wiring that if anyone is killed it is you. I never said you should be killed for asking questions.

As for providing you with the applicable facts in an internet posting it simply cannot be done. I have been installing and servicing power systems for most of my adult life. It would take a book to provide you with all of the sneak current paths I have encountered over those years.

I thought it was pretty glib of you to say that only stupid people would forget to open the main breaker. Fatigued, drug or alcohol impaired, or over stressed people who are not stupid can and have made that mistake. Not all panels have a single main breaker. Some have four or six and one of those mains would be the dryer outlet while another would be the stove outlet and so forth. In order to get power into those homes you would have to close one or more of the main breakers each of which is connected to the service entry conductors from the service drop or lateral and thus to the transformer. Federal Pacific two pole breakers, of an extensive number of production runs, will fail closed after a very limited number of manual or automatic operations. I have seen other brands fail closed as well usually from internal corrosion secondary to water following the service conductors to the main breaker from the service entry cable.

I am a firefighter and I have responded to a child shocked by a suicide cord as well as to a tree worker electrocuted by a generator back feed.

The injured child was shocked after a playmate found a double male cord hanging in the garage and plugged it in. When the child touched the exposed pin on the other end he received a shock that fortunately did no permanent harm. He was treated for a small The cord had been made up by the landlord to bridge out an open circuit in order to avoid the cost of an electrician on a service call. The circuit continuity had failed at a push in terminal receptacle. After the tenant had demanded the repair of the circuit through the city housing office the landlord had stored the cord for future use.

The back feed death occurred during the 1988 micro burst clean up in the Maryland suburbs of Washington, DC. A tree trimming crew was clearing limbs and trees off of power lines so that they could be rebuilt. The power was out over a very large area and some of the sub stations had been taken off line and grounded out to facilitate the tree work. When my engine arrived on scene we were met by the owner of that family owned, two truck, tree trimming company begging us to get his son down. He had come in contact with a 13.9 kilovolt line that was energized through a neighborhood transformer from the only service drop that was still intact. That drop was to a home were the back feed was coming from. Another fire fighter used one of our fiberglass pike poles as a hot stick to open the fuse above the transformer while I pulled the homes meter. We then brought the tree worker down and attempted CPR and applied an automated external defibrulator. The tree worker did not recover and was pronounced dead after nearly an hour of resuscitative effort at the hospital emergency department less than five minutes from the scene.

Several utility workers have been killed by back feeds from generators. A search of the FACE reports on the OSHA web sight will bring up several examples. In one case, in Georgia, the line had been grounded out but the lineman had failed to notice that the grounding wire on the pole had been broken by a motor vehicle. Since that incident occurred during the clean up after hurricane Hugo the Multi Grounded Neutral (MGM) that should have provided a perfectly safe ground had been broken into short segments by falling limbs. With the only grounding electrode conductor that was still attached to that segment of the MGM damaged near the base of the pole the protection of the grounding was lost.

I'm a sore looser when it comes to the death of young healthy people who are killed by the negligent actions of others.

-- Tom H

Reply to
Takoma Park Volunteer Fire Department Postmaster
Loading thread data ...

In Backfeeding with a portable generator - REAL safety concerns??? on Mon, 06 Sep 2004 17:33:07 GMT, by Friday, we read:

Yeah, right. You might, or someone else might.

The remedy is simple. A transfer switch box (which would be part of the job of a professional installation) is about $90. This has a fail safe device connected to two switches. The first closes the main circuit to the power line; the second closes the circuit to your house wiring. This way there is no danger of backfeeding.

Just install a transfer switch.

Pilot error.

Reply to
Strabo

That is a code violation. I don't know why exactly, but it is.

Reply to
John

You should be more specific when you are throwing around words like "code violation". It is just a sign that you don't have a clue.

There is nothing wrong with a blower motor and the thermostat being cord and plug connected.

Reply to
Greg

Bravo. Quick, cheap, expedient and most importantly, safe.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman Liebmann

Reply to
Gunner

I always keep plenty of fresh flashlight batteries and a few spare bulbs on hand.

PLUS, I have this neat little flashlight that doesnt use batteries or bulbs. Magnets charge a capacitor which lights up an LED. Supposed to be good for several HUNDRED thousand hours. I just did something similar with the furnace yesterday (split the main line and put in male and female plugs), Tested it and it works fine. For everything else, extension cords will do the job.

Reply to
Friday

The guy fronm the power compnay was here yesterday doing some other work and he looked at it and said it was fine.

Of course he's not an inspector. Wonder why that would be against code. Local code?

Reply to
Friday

I don't claim to be a NEC code expert, but last time I checked, a furnace was considered a "stationary appliance" (like a dishwasher) and thus must accordingly be connected with a hard-wired connection.

Lots of furnaces are wired to accept 240 V, so a 120 V. twist lock plug would be illegal in these cases.

Does anyone know of a rule that would allow an exception?

Beachcomber

Reply to
Beachcomber

You sure seem to claim to be an "expert" What edition of the code did you check? Certainly not one published in the US.

There are plenty of dishwashers, disposals and such cord and plug connected. There is no such "rule".

That is true, you would need a 240v plug. But you would need that to connect to the generator side too.

For your future "checking"

These articles are substantially the same as they were in the Hoover administration

*****NEC2002 210.23 Permissible Loads. (A)(1) Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment. The rating of any one cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment shall not exceed 80 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating. (2) Utilization Equipment Fastened in Place. The total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

430.42(C) Cord-and-Plug Connected. Where a motor is connected to a branch circuit by means of an attachment plug and receptacle and individual overload protection is omitted as provided in 430.42(A), the rating of the attachment plug and receptacle shall not exceed 15 amperes at 125 volts or 250 volts. Where individual overload protection is required as provided in 430.42(B) for a motor or motor-operated appliance that is attached to the branch circuit through an attachment plug and receptacle, the overload device shall be an integral part of the motor or of the appliance. The rating of the attachment plug and receptacle shall determine the rating of the circuit to which the motor may be connected, as provided in Article 210.

****

The factory supplied overload protection does not change when you add a cord and plug If you are going to cite "rules" you should tell us where they are.

Reply to
Greg

ANSI Standard Z21.47 does not allow cord and plug connections for gas furnaces. NEC 400.7(A)(8) and 422.16.(A) allow flexible cord only on appliances specifically intended for them, and forbid them on appliances that cannot be readily moved.

Is that specific enough. No, it is not a sign that I don't have a clue; it simply means that knowledgable people don't need the references, and others don't want them. I guess you fall into the class of ignorant people who don't even know it.

Reply to
John

How about the rule of survival; i.e.: not freezing to death.

Reply to
Friday

I appologize, you got me although you still might be able to make the 400.7(6) case if these power failures are frequent.

No matter what it is still a safer method than backfeeding the panel and I give that a 90-4.

Reply to
Greg

Apology accepted. As I said in the first post, I really don't understand why it is forbidden; it just is. Presumably it is so you can't accidentally leave it unplugged, but you can just as easily leave it turned off or with breaker open.

Reply to
John

It is really because no manufacturer has submitted his equipment for testing so it can be "identified" for this use. Those dishwasher and garbage disposal articles are only because someone asked for them.

Reply to
Greg

It is also possible to receive special consideration for certain cases from the AHJ for using a cord and plug connection for fixed equipment that would normally require a hard wire connection.

I have never seen it allowed in a residential application, but I have frequently seen it in industrial situations where equipment is fed from bus duct overhead, and while the equipment is fastened to the floor it is regrouped occasionally for production reasons, moved out for repair, or power feeds are disconnected to allow other oversize equipment to be moved about.

Louis--

********************************************* Remove the two fish in address to respond

Reply to
Louis Bybee

The problem with building idiot resistant gadgets (like the safety grip handles on lawn mowers) is that we keep getting better idoits. Like folks who wire down safety handles.

You can do what I did: Anything you think you might want on the generator, wire it in with extension cords and plugs. Refrig, couple lights, computer, etc.

I did have to do some wiring for the furnace, had to put a cord and plug on the furnace, and wire a socket. I know it's not code, but it's been perfectly safe. Better than the last nine years I lived here, I didn't even see that the guy who put in my furnace didn't use a romex connector. The

14/2 was rubbing on the punch out.
Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I know it is -- I also don't know why it's in the code. My refrig, toaster, hair dryer, and chicken plucker all have plugs.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

If I really wanted to be pedantic I would point out that the violation is the CORD, not the plug. If you used MC cable terminating in the right connector, a plug/receptacle is still legal. You will still need an extension cord to get to the generator anyway and that is temporary wiring where cords are legal.

Reply to
Greg

Any problems running your cmputer(s) off the generator? I've read so many articles insisting this is a no-no (for any sensitive electronics, even TVs).

Reply to
Friday

It should meet code IF you put wheels on the furnace; then it cannot be considered stationary.

Reply to
Nick Hull

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.