Closed Delta 120/240V 3-phase service

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 01:05:22 -0500 snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: | On 13 Feb 2008 05:46:10 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |>On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 19:11:46 -0600 Ben Miller wrote: |>| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |>|> One option is to use a three phase transformer where all three |>|> secondary windings are 240 volt center tapped to 120/240 volts. What |>|> you get are SIX separate hot phase wires, and a neutral. I'll label |>|> the phase wires going clockwise as A,B,C,D,E,F. You can have 2 three |>|> phase systems from this, connecting to A,C,E or B,D,F. They would be |>|> 208Y/120. And you can have 3 single phase systems from this, |>|> connecting to A,D and B,E and C,F. Divide the tenants that get single |>|> phase three equal ways and this way they get genuine 120/240. This |>|> is actually a bit more complex than the common systems (for example |>|> you would have 3 separate distributions for the single phase). You |>|> probably can't meter the whole thing at once. |>|> But I'd prefer such a system, myself. |>|>

|>| |>| I am obviously missing something. How do you connect the center taps of |>| three windings together, and then connect them in a wye, and not blow up the |>| transformer? And how do you get 240/120 & 208Y/120 from the same windings? |>

|>Maybe an ASCII art picture will help: |>

|> B C |> \ / |> \ / |>A----N----D |> / \ |> / \ |> F E |>

|>A-N and N-D are both wound on the first core. B-N and N-E are both wound |>on the second core. C-N and N-F are both wound on the third core. A third |>of the 120/240 loads would be served from A-N-D. A third of the 120/240 |>loads would be served from B-N-E. A third of the 120/240 loads would be |>served from C-N-F. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from A,C,E |>and N. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from B,D,F and N. |>

|>You could also get 120 volts from A-B or B-C or C-D or D-E or E-F or F-A, |>but you would not want to. |>

|>You could also ignore the center tap and rewire it for 416Y/240. |>

|>If the windings can be split and wired in parallel, you could rewire it |>for 208Y/120 with double the amperage. |>

|>A transformer with dual secondary 120 volt windings on each of the three |>cores would be quite flexible, being able to be configured for any of |>these three systems (but you would have 12 wires coming off the cores on |>the secondary side). | | I agree with Mr Kelly | | They use delta vee to save money, why would they do this 6 pole thing?

To serve a lot of 120/240 volt single phase loads AND keep phases balanced? It might depend on how large a building is involved. Suppose it is a 10 floor building with 9 floors that have 12 residential apartments, each. Would you in the role of a utility engineer be satisified running single phase service into that building? I would think not. Then would delta with only one side having all the 120/240 loads really be any better? What I would ultimately propose for such a project would be to bring in

480Y/277 to the building, run that to the elevators, and put single phase transformers on floors 3 (serving 2-4), 6 (serving 5-7) and 9 (serving 8-10), fed from diverse 480 volt connections (480 to 120/240 volt single phase dry transformers are pretty common). Various outside HID lights could also be fed from the 277 volts.

The risk of mixing the wiring with 6 phases is probably realistic. But isn't that what color marking of conductors is for? Besides, the only places to get that mixed up is between a common single transformer and the place where the phases split into 3 sets of single phase. If this concept had been chosen a long time ago and been an accepted standard, I'm sure we would have a color code standard, now, for each phase angle.

If anyone does make a three phase transformer that could be wired for either 208Y/120 or 416Y/240, my bet is someone with the know-how could wire it for the scheme I suggested (although it might not have enough outgoing terminal lugs, or enough conduit space, to do it).

Got it. Thanks. It was the "center tap" that threw me. It is really 6 windings in a star configuration.

The "6 phase " scheme wouldn't cost any more in terms of the transformers and could be done using a bank of 3 single phase pole pigs. However, it would appear that there would be additional costs involved with no net gain as well as a more complex system. Where possible one should avoid adding complexity (KISS). This doesn't mean that it can't be done but may mean that it shouldn't be done. There has been some playing around in the past on the basis that 3 phase is good so maybe 6 or 12 phase is better- tain't so except in some special cases. Where 6 phase has been used is in some urban distribution where there is a savings in terms of space necessary at a given line to neutral voltage because the line to line voltage between adjacent phases is then the same as to neutral. Whether this is still being done is something that I don't know. It also has been used for rectifier supplies in order to reduce harmonics and ripple.

Your scheme of 480Y and single phase transformers is far better.

Are we not forgetting about the primary windings for such a scheme?

For three phase, the textbooks say that wye-wye is not used because of undesirable harmonics in the neutral. Would that not apple also to this six phase scheme?

How would the primaries be connected then?

Also, doesn't six phase distribution mean six phase transmission? Six phase transmission for any distance is going to be horrorendously expensive just to keep a few apartment buildings at 120/240 V.

Beachcomber

| The "6 phase " scheme wouldn't cost any more in terms of the transformers | and could be done using a bank of 3 single phase pole pigs. However, it | would appear that there would be additional costs involved with no net gain | as well as a more complex system. Where possible one should avoid adding | complexity (KISS). This doesn't mean that it can't be done but may mean | that it shouldn't be done.

So what would you have instead, keeping to the requirement of genuine

240 volts at the single phase circuits?

| There has been some playing around in the past on the basis that 3 phase is | good so maybe 6 or 12 phase is better- tain't so except in some special | cases. | Where 6 phase has been used is in some urban distribution where there is a | savings in terms of space necessary at a given line to neutral voltage | because the line to line voltage between adjacent phases is then the same as | to neutral. Whether this is still being done is something that I don't know. | It also has been used for rectifier supplies in order to reduce harmonics | and ripple.

I've wondered if any of those 6-wire transmission lines might be phased this way, even if the loads end up being split at the far end.

| Your scheme of 480Y and single phase transformers is far better.

So that's the way you would go? What if the utility says they don't want to have the loss of an extra set of transformers with MV -> 480 -> 120/240 and insist on no more than one transformer per MV -> meter path?

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:13:15 +0000 (UTC) Michael Moroney wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net writes: | |>Maybe an ASCII art picture will help: | |> B C |> \ / |> \ / |>A----N----D |> / \ |> / \ |> F E | |>A-N and N-D are both wound on the first core. B-N and N-E are both wound |>on the second core. C-N and N-F are both wound on the third core. A third |>of the 120/240 loads would be served from A-N-D. A third of the 120/240 |>loads would be served from B-N-E. A third of the 120/240 loads would be |>served from C-N-F. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from A,C,E |>and N. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from B,D,F and N. | | I always wondered if either any electric company offered such a service, | or if there was any such thing as a breaker panel that would support it. | I strongly suspect the answer to both is an absolute No Way, esp. if | you think about how the heck you'd design the panel. You'd have to invent | nonstandard breakers that would do lots of skipping to be useful. Of | course such a service would really be useful only in an apartment building | where there would be multiple standard panels, mostly residential split | phase (1/3 A-D 1/3 B-E 1/3 C-F) and a 3 phase panel for elevator service, | so no need for an actual panel for this 7 wire service.

I have seen 6-pole disconnects, presumably intended for large motor control. But I have seen them up to 600 volt 400 amp. That's a huge motor.

A 6 phase panel is just too bizarre.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 06:54:13 GMT Beachcomber wrote: | |>> B C |>> \ / |>> \ / |>>A----N----D |>> / \ |>> / \ |>> F E |>

|>>A-N and N-D are both wound on the first core. B-N and N-E are both wound |>>on the second core. C-N and N-F are both wound on the third core. A third |>>of the 120/240 loads would be served from A-N-D. A third of the 120/240 |>>loads would be served from B-N-E. A third of the 120/240 loads would be |>>served from C-N-F. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from A,C,E |>>and N. Half of the 208Y/120 loads would be served from B,D,F and N. |>

|>I always wondered if either any electric company offered such a service, |>or if there was any such thing as a breaker panel that would support it. | | Are we not forgetting about the primary windings for such a scheme? | | For three phase, the textbooks say that wye-wye is not used because | of undesirable harmonics in the neutral. Would that not apple also to | this six phase scheme?

Nothing about this scheme prevents a delta primary.

Of course, if you want to backfeed power for credit into the utility, you might need a wye-wye anyway.

| How would the primaries be connected then?

Delta.

| Also, doesn't six phase distribution mean six phase transmission? Six | phase transmission for any distance is going to be horrorendously | expensive just to keep a few apartment buildings at 120/240 V.

This would be a traditional E-core transformer. The primaries would be a winding on each bar of the E-core at 480 volts (for example) and wired in the traditional delta configuration. The secondaries would be a pair of

120 volt windings. You can wire the 120 volt windings in parallel for a traditional 480D -> 208Y/120 transformer. You can wire those same 120 volt windings in series for the somewhat unusual 480D -> 416Y/240 (military has generators for 416Y/240 and might have to do just that in the case they get a 480 volt power source instead). That series wiring could be used with the center tap of each secondary connected to neutral instead of one end, to make the 6 phase arrangement.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:56:26 -0600 Ben Miller wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |> Maybe an ASCII art picture will help: |>

|> B C |> \ / |> \ / |> A----N----D |> / \ |> / \ |> F E |>

|> A-N and N-D are both wound on the first core. B-N and N-E are both |> wound on the second core. C-N and N-F are both wound on the third |> core. A third of the 120/240 loads would be served from A-N-D. A |> third of the 120/240 loads would be served from B-N-E. A third of |> the 120/240 loads would be served from C-N-F. Half of the 208Y/120 |> loads would be served from A,C,E and N. Half of the 208Y/120 loads |> would be served from B,D,F and N. |>

|> You could also get 120 volts from A-B or B-C or C-D or D-E or E-F or |> F-A, but you would not want to. |>

|> You could also ignore the center tap and rewire it for 416Y/240. |>

|> If the windings can be split and wired in parallel, you could rewire |> it for 208Y/120 with double the amperage. |>

|> A transformer with dual secondary 120 volt windings on each of the |> three cores would be quite flexible, being able to be configured for |> any of these three systems (but you would have 12 wires coming off |> the cores on the secondary side). |>

|>> ---------------------------------------/----------------------------------| |>> Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address |>> below | first name lower case at ipal.net / |>> snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net | |>> ------------------------------------/-------------------------------------| | | | Got it. Thanks. It was the "center tap" that threw me. It is really 6 | windings in a star configuration.

If you have a common single phase 480 volt transformer with a pair of 120 volt windings that can be wired in parallel or series, I suppose you would call that a 2 winding secondary. But what if the windings are just tapped in the center and cannot be separated for parallel wiring? Would you still call that a 2 windings secondary? Either kind of winding could be used on each bar of the E-core to make the 240/208/120 6 point star configuration.

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:33:34 +0000 (UTC) Michael Moroney wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@notreal.none (Beachcomber) writes: | |>I'm wondering if the simplicity of a single phase 240/120 V service |>for a small elevator building is in some way superior to the slightly |>more complex 3 phase- 208/120 V. wye service. | |>Can a small hydraulic passenger elevator serving a maximum of 3 flloor |>run OK on a 240 V. single phase circuit? If wired the other way, this |>would probably be the only 3 phase load. | | Do the elevator companies even offer a single phase elevator system in | the size you need? (how many HP is such an elevator motor). Since | the system has to control the motor, possibly reversing it, you may | not be able to simply replace the motor with a single phase motor. | | Do you have a need for 240V (not 208V) residential devices? If not,

Yes.

| there's no real advantage of 240V delta or open delta over standard | 208Y/120 service. The only real place I see where 240V delta has a place | is residential service with a small 3 phase load, such as a workshop or | large A/C unit. That's simply because homes have 240V and 120/240V single | phase appliances.

As do condos in very large buildings where not all big appliances are provided as part of the condo arrangement.

Suppose you buy a condo with 208Y/120 service, of which you get 2 lines of that. It has appliances included in the sale because the developer bought special 208 volt versions. You live there a few years and one of them fails and you need to buy a replacement. Go to Sears or some place like that and ask for 208 volt versions as if you were in this situation and see how easy it is.

Some modern ranges could easily handle 200 to 240 volts by means using a thermostat that manges the heat even so that at 208 volts there are some times the element goes off to maintain the correct temperature. It would be on for 208 volts more than for 240 volts.

| I have seen open delta 3 phase in residential areas of Baton Rouge LA for | whole house A/C. 1 large and one tiny transformer.

I'm sure when A/C systems started showing up, with many using 3-phase, they were among the first to get them down in the very hot south.

I wonder how many of those big+little transformer setups were Scott-T instead.

| snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net writes: | |>What I wonder is how 240 volt L-L loads would do with either the closed or |>open 240D/120 systems, when connected between the high-leg and either pole |>of the 120/240 side. Consider the simple 240 volt water heater, assuming |>it treats both wires as hot, which it must in USA single phase systems. | | I would assume no effect, as long as the insulation was rated for 208VAC | to ground vs. 120VAC to ground, and you don't overload the possibly small | high leg transformer. The insulation won't be an issue for anything | designed for European use where either leg may be hot, since either leg | must handle 240V. One overload problem is when something is connected | across the missing leg of an open delta system. The transformers have to | deal with a higher VA per delivered watt, plus more copper losses. | Combine this with a small high leg transformer and you may see voltage | sag.

Would a computer overload it?

Phil I agree. I had something else in my mind. Maybe just reading posts too late at night!

Wye or delta, whatever is standard for a 3 phase transformer bank on the distribution system servicing this.

I don't know about that. Around here, nearly every 3 pole pig transformer bank is wired wye-wye. I don't know what's on the inside of pad transformers or the single can 3 phase pole pigs.

Also, this scheme is as much 6 phase as your home service is 2 phase. A standard 3 wire+N 3 phase primary system is all that's needed for the

3 transformers.

No.

What do you mean by "computer"? A PC or a big-assed old mainframe? I seriously doubt a PC with a 400W power supply will overload a high leg transformer of a few kVA.

I was asking the original poster who was wondering about getting 240V delta or open delta service for a small building with an elevator.

[snip explanation why you'd want 120/240V service in a condo)

I agree that 120/240V service should always be supplied for residential service.

I'll amend my earlier answer to say if the configuration is a small apartment building small enough to power all the residences off a single transformer providing 120V/240V service, an open delta to provide for an elevator or other small 3 phase load would be appropiate.

I was real curious what was going on in the Baton Rouge case so I did study the wiring enough to figure out it was open delta. I don't think I've ever seen a Scott-T type setup using two pole pigs.

I take that back, sort of.

One weird setup I've seen, and I'm not totally sure exactly what it is:

1 large 3 phase transformer (single can) with a small transformer can below it on a pole. The small transformer has NO MV connection nor even a MV bushing! It sits below the drops to the homes/businesses. The only thing I can think it could be is the big can is 240V delta, and the high leg powers the small can, with is a 208V/240VCT. The big can powers half the residential services plus any 3 phase services, the small can powers the other residential services. It's sort of Scott-T relative to the big can. But this is a guess, I actually don't know how it's wired. I even took a photo to try and figure it out. There are quite a few of these setups in Philadelphia.

A Scott-T is used to get two phase from three phase. There are very few two phase requirements any more.

Some erroneously call the 240/120V system "two phase" when it's really a single phase with a center tap. (Or two 120V windings connected in series.)

The last time I encountered a true Scott-T was in my exam for Professional Engineer, back in 1952.

Often used for the filament supplies in the modulator valves on large AM transmitters. Two seperate filaments fed from the two different phases to reduce hum caused by modulation of the anode current due to variation of the emmision at mains frequency.

You are not likely to see too many Scott T transformers with three-phase supplies feeding three-phase loads, as you simply don't need them. It is far more likely that the Large+small transformers are open delta.

|>As do condos in very large buildings where not all big appliances are |>provided as part of the condo arrangement. | | [snip explanation why you'd want 120/240V service in a condo) | | I agree that 120/240V service should always be supplied for residential | service. | | I'll amend my earlier answer to say if the configuration is a small | apartment building small enough to power all the residences off a single | transformer providing 120V/240V service, an open delta to provide for an | elevator or other small 3 phase load would be appropiate.

Or a Scott-T if the original 120/240 volt pole pig is a two-bushing type. Then a small one bushing transformer connected to the 3rd phase would give you the 90 degrees difference that Scott-T needs.

|>| I have seen open delta 3 phase in residential areas of Baton Rouge LA for |>| whole house A/C. 1 large and one tiny transformer. | |>I'm sure when A/C systems started showing up, with many using 3-phase, they |>were among the first to get them down in the very hot south. | |>I wonder how many of those big+little transformer setups were Scott-T instead. | | I was real curious what was going on in the Baton Rouge case so I did | study the wiring enough to figure out it was open delta. I don't think | I've ever seen a Scott-T type setup using two pole pigs.

What you would see in a Scott-T is that one transformer, preferrably the big one, would have 2 bushings, and the other would have 1 bushing. Each of the bushings would be connected to separate MV phases to get the 90 degree phase relationship.

| I take that back, sort of. | | One weird setup I've seen, and I'm not totally sure exactly what it is: | 1 large 3 phase transformer (single can) with a small transformer can | below it on a pole. The small transformer has NO MV connection nor even a | MV bushing! It sits below the drops to the homes/businesses. The only | thing I can think it could be is the big can is 240V delta, and the high | leg powers the small can, with is a 208V/240VCT. The big can powers half | the residential services plus any 3 phase services, the small can powers | the other residential services. It's sort of Scott-T relative to the big | can. But this is a guess, I actually don't know how it's wired. I even | took a photo to try and figure it out. There are quite a few of these | setups in Philadelphia.

If the big can is already 3 phase, why would anyone need to also have a Scott-T? That doesn't make sense. It must be something else. How many MV bushings on each can? How many secondary lugs? While I have seen a few single-can three phase transformers in pole pig in pictures from other countries, I've never seen them in the USA. Pad mounts are different and do come in big three phase tanks.

See if you can get multiple photos each at the same distance taken in a partial circle around the transformer setup so it can be seen in 3-D by pairing selected photos. Take them on a dismal cloudy gray overcast day. If you have exposure setting, take a second set overexposed by 2 stops (to get more detail in the wiring itself). If using film, Tech Pan is the best choice unless something in color provides clues.

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 12:59:38 -0800 VWWall wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | |> I'm sure when A/C systems started showing up, with many using 3-phase, they |> were among the first to get them down in the very hot south. |> |> I wonder how many of those big+little transformer setups were Scott-T instead. | | A Scott-T is used to get two phase from three phase. There are very few | two phase requirements any more.

It can produce the equivalent of 240 delta when connected appropriately:

• * * * / \ / \ | / / \ / \ | / / \ / \ | /

*-------* *---*---* *---*---* *---*---* 240D 240DCT Scott-T 240VCT

What you need is 208 volts at 90 degrees, one end connected to the neutral which is the center tap of the 120/240 single phase. The effective voltage phasing gives the same relative voltage as the 240 delta. You get a 90 degree phase angle when one primary is connected L-L and the other is connected L-N where the latter L is different (e.g. A-B and C-N).

| Some erroneously call the 240/120V system "two phase" when it's really a | single phase with a center tap. (Or two 120V windings connected in series.)

Personally, I would have preferred to use the term "phase" for each of the different vectors around the reference (generally the grounded conductor). But that's not how things worked out. So I need to use some other term. Often "pole" is used, but that can get confused with those big wooden sticks that hold wires up high. I'd say "vector" but no one would understand.

| The last time I encountered a true Scott-T was in my exam for | Professional Engineer, back in 1952.

I've found Scott-T dry-type transformers online.