Fabricating a 9 volt counter top electrical shocker

OK, I'll admit up-front that this probably *isn't* the most intellectually challenging question posed to this newsgroup...
In any event, my last post was at "rec.pets.dogs.behavior" where I asked for pointers to commercial products that I could place around the perimiter of a counter (or table) to teach our 5-month-old Golden Retriever puppy to stop jumping up. Turns out there is such a device called the "Scat Mat", but it's WAY overpriced at $37.00 for a single 3" x 46" strip that runs off a 9 volt battery (and I would need at least 4 of them for full coverage in the kitchen).
I figure I can rig up something myself for under $10.00...including the 9 volt battery!
So: can someone summarize what I need to do to fabricate my own "Scat Mat" with the following spec requirements:
1. Must run off a 9 volt battery 2. Must be relatively easy to attach and remove from the perimeter of a table or counter 3. NO RISK OF FIRE! 4. No directly exposed wires, since the puppy will have her feet and/or nose on the counter before she learns that this is verboten behavior 5. Must be safe (relatively speaking) for kids (I have 3 young kids, ages 10, 7 and 6)
You can assume that I know how to use a soldering iron.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
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intellectually
where I asked for

the perimiter of a

puppy to stop

"Scat Mat", but

that runs off a 9

coverage in the

$10.00...including the 9

own "Scat Mat"

perimeter of a

feet and/or nose

behavior
young kids, ages

forget it...its too dangerous for the kids.. those mats would be safe probably but you couldnt make them yourself for 37 dollars if you time is worth more than 7 dollars an hour. buy one mat and move it around.
Just get a dart gun and nail the pooch in the ass every time he jumps up where he shouldnt. that would be sporting.
Or you could wait till he matures a bit then just talk to him man to man.
Phil Scott

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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 04:38:23 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

It must be "relatively" safe for your kids, but you're worried about spending 37 bucks on something that was probably designed by someone who knew what the hell they were doing? Buy the damned thing or get rid of the dog... jeez. I doubt that you could build one for less, and who knows what you'd end up with?

--
Checkmate

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With all due respect to Phil & Checkmate, these are NOT the answers I was looking for!
If someone makes a post to the Alternative Music alias asking for the whereabouts of that rare "Siouxsie and the Banshees" album from 1981, he does not want to receive a reply stating, "Dude, why are you wasting your time listening to Siouxsie? You ought to be listening to Frank Sinatra, instead!"
My time definitely is worth more than $7.00 an hour, but I do have several free hours each evening to play with, and that time I bill out at the rate of $0.00 per hour. Sometimes I spend that time building radio controlled airplanes -- of course, I could "save" that time by buying a ready-made kit for $200.00, but, hey, who's couting?
The only conclusion that I can reach so far is that a simple shocking device that runs off a single 9 volt battery is beyond the capabilities of either Phil or Checkmate to enumerate...or perhaps only the engineers at "Scat Mat" are smart enough to put something like this together. As for the "safe for kids" spec requirements, I meant only that it should be relatively benign (the shock notwithstanding) should one of the kids accidentally touch it.

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most intellectually

where I asked

around the

Golden
such a device

for a single 3" x

at least 4 of

$10.00...including the 9

my own "Scat Mat"

perimeter of a

her feet and/or

verboten behavior

young kids, ages

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Fair enough.
You articulated your case well, and unless someone else come along with a foolproof method for jolting my Golden Retriever without shocking my kids, I guess I need to consider forking over $50-$100 to the experts at "Scat Mat". (I'm already envisioning a 72-page legal disclaimer document that accompanies the actual plastic shock pad.)
The time needed to fabricate something on my own was never a consideration (in any event, how much time could this take even in the worst case scenario? two, maybe three hours, tops?). But safety *IS* paramount, especially with 3 young kids in the mix. I'm surprised that a $3.00 9 volt battery is intrinsically dangerous, even potentially life threatening, in an application such as this, but I'll take your word for it as I'm not an electrical engineer; even 1 in 10,000 odds are not worth the risk.
The frustrating part is that our puppy Goldie will learn to keep off the counters after no more than 2 or 3 shock therapy sessions, which translates to $17-$33 per session with the plastic 9 volt shrink. Maybe I ought to look on EBay for other dog owners who have already forked over the cash for "Scat Mats" and are now looking to unload them now that Fido has learned to keep off the kitchen counters.
Thanks for clearing things up, Phil. I understand.

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"rec.pets.dogs.behavior"
5-month-old
$37.00
need
fabricate
the
3
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One last thing: I made my previous post having only read through the 1st half of your 2nd reply (that is, up to the word "Kapeesh"). This post addresses the second half of your reply, which -- among other things -- included references to my wife's vagina.
Please don't confuse "sarcasm" with an "insult". I did employ sarcasm in my response, but I did not insult you (or at least, I did not *intend* to insult you). In fact, my initial reply to both you and Checkmate was no more sarcastic than either of the less than helpful, and highly sarcastic, initial responses I received.
When I asked for advice on how to build an inexpensive 9 volt counter top electrical shocker it was not strictly to "save $30 bucks" [actually, it's more like $160 bucks if I buy 4 of the pads] but also because I enjoy building things and I assumed (mistakenly, it now appears) that fabricating a device running off a common 9 volt battery didn't constitute rocket science. I was also trying to be a conscientious consumer by not buying a plastic-based product destined to have an extremely limited lifespan, only to see it end up in a landfill within a years of its initial purchase date.
Finally, let's not confuse an informal "spec" tied to an anonymous request for advice posted to a public newsgroups with a formalized, written specification requiring the formalized and costly input of a Professional Engineer.
Having said that, I do appreciate the time you have taken to reply...although, sadly, I doubt that my wife does.

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"rec.pets.dogs.behavior"
5-month-old
$37.00
need
fabricate
the
3
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Phil,
You'd be right at home on the rec.pets.dogs.behavior newsgroup.
Well-intentioned dog owners typically post an innocent enough question ("Skippy keeps pooping on the carpet and I keep scolding him, but it doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?")
Within seconds, there are at least a half-dozen canine "do-gooders" and "know-it-alls" jumping all over the poor poster, none of whom address the initial question but all of whom can draw from an endless fountain of righteous indignation (just like you).
***
"It's obvious that if Skippy is crapping on your carpet you have no business being a dog owner in the first place!"
"The reason Skippy is soiling your carpet is because you're a rotten owner! You don't even deserve to own a fish, let alone a dog. Loser!"
"You're scolding him? That's outrageous! I'll have you know that I'm reporting you to the ASPCA right now!"
***
So far, after a total of 11 posts to this thread, I've received only one reply that is even worth reading: from Palindr?me, who made a number of reasonable alternative suggestions, while at the same time underlining the dangerousness of my initial proposal without being preachy, condescending or crude.
Apparently, these are traits that you have not yet mastered...and probably never will.

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On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:01:45 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

I'm afraid that's pretty-much the way Usenet works in just about any group. Here's an idea that you might find more palatable: If you're convinced that you can make the necessary conductive pads to make this whole thing work, and it's worth the time it'll take you to do it (which nearly everyone in this group will probably tell you you've grossly underestimated) why not buy one of the commercially available dog zappers, and parallel the included pad with your fabricated pads to extend the area of coverage?
--
Checkmate

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I think you're right that I've underestimated the amount of time it will take to do this properly; realizing this, I'm not going to do anything on my own.
I suppose I can be forgiven for not knowing much about the mysteries of electrical engineering, but I seriously thought I might get an initial reply like the following:
***
"Hey Armchair: this shouldn't be to hard to, but I wouldn't want to hook the contraption up until the kids have gone to bed. If you elminate them from the equation, then building this thing will be much easier. Anyway, here's what you need:
* a 9 volt battery connector from Radio Shack * 2 long strands of thin, bare wire * a roll of electrical tape * etc. etc.
Here's what you do: solder the strands to the battery connector outputs, and then run the wire strands around the perimeter of the table, keeping them within 2mm of each other but making sure they don't touch; use electrical tape every 6 inches or so to hold down the wire; this will keep the dog from getting tangled up in it but will still expose enough raw wire to give her a good jolt when she touches both wires. Etc., etc.,"
***
Obviously, I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. On the other hand, call me "Old School", but a counter top electrical shocker (provided the kids are removed from the mix) still doesn't strike me as Rocket Science requiring an advanced degree in EE, even if I don't understand all of the nuiances of electrons.
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:28:36 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

When I was a kid, I went to Disneyland and was fascinated by a gadget they had in the Main Street Arcade that would shock you with increasing voltage, and "score" you on how much you could tolerate. I went home and rigged up a dry cell through a buzzer and a transformer, producing enough voltage to make it pretty damned uncomfortable to hang onto. It didn't kill me, so I guess it was safe, but if I had used a larger battery capable of more amperage, it could possibly have produced a lethal combination of voltage and current. Today's solid state circuits are more sophisticated, but I think you can understand why people here are reluctant to suggest such a contraption, not knowing if it would end up being built or used in a safe manner. Even if someone here gave you directions on a device that was safe to use, just substituting one component... intentionally or unintentionally, could make it lethal. Sometimes it's more helpful not to help.
--
Checkmate

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about any

If you're

to make this

to do it (which

you've grossly

available dog

fabricated pads to

time it will

do anything on my

mysteries of

an initial reply

want to hook the

elminate them from

Anyway, here's

connector outputs, and

keeping them

use electrical

keep the dog from

wire to give her a

9 volts wont give her a jolt.
it has to be transformed up to thousands of volts for that.
Phil Scott

the other hand,

(provided the

Rocket Science

understand all of the

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the notion

newsgroup.
enough question

him, but it doesn't

"do-gooders" and

whom address the

fountain of

you have no business

you're a rotten owner!

Loser!"
know that I'm

about any

If you're

make this

do it (which

grossly
available dog

pads to

The dog zapper pads are no doubt a fine wire mesh woven into a fabric... so that there is not static charge build up... if our gentle friend here makes his own out of tinfoil, the capacitance effects of the tin foil/air capacitance created could blow his fillings out.
Phil Scott

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Phil Scott wrote:

A 15' run of a pair of aluminium self-adhesive strips, as used for glass break detectors, measures out at 120pF (although distance apart and substrate will make a significant difference). At 10kV, this gives a stored charge of about one hundredth of a joule. A taser works at about a third of a joule and about 10 joules are needed for ventricular fibrillation. Far more important than the stored energy in the dog-machine interface is the stored energy and capability of the source. A fresh standard 9 volt battery is well capable of supplying over 10 joules, so the design of the electronic inverter is critical. Increasing the output voltage to 50 kV for a well-designed unit would probably* not be fatal but would certainly make the recipient fairly determined not to do it again...
--

Sue

*This system would deliver twice the energy of a standard taser, if the
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forth
to
to
you've
fabricated
into a

if
created
used for glass

apart and

gives a

works at about

Thanks for the calc. So those aluminum adhesive strips are say 1/2" wide max.. and our home owner makes his pads say 6" wide by 60" long as per some one elses suggestion to use aluminum foil.... for a net 350 square inches.
15' of the glass detector tape at 1/2 an inch would be 90 sq inches... so with our wider piece of material we are at roughly 4.5 times the capacitance.
so its .3 joule's as you calculated for the narrow srip x 4.5 with a 6" x 60" foil pad or 1.4 joules roughly, assuming the foil pad is the same thickness as the foil glass break tape. Which dont think it is.... The glass break tape is *probably 1/3 the thickness...if it were, then capacitance would be to 4.3 joules,

So with these rough figgers we are at half the energy needed to create ventricular contraction... to kill the kiddies the gentleman would have to go to 5' of material from a standard r 12" roll of aluminum foil... and thats probable, or use reynolds heavy duty foil. that might work.

the source.
The combo would be exciting.

over 10

critical. Increasing

probably* not

determined not to

Our home owner was going to use the 9vdc direct from the battery, putting him into the deadly device range if he used a 12" x 5' long foil pad.. (variable with foil thickness and conductance etc... with perfect conductance a childs moist thin skinned hand while touching a ground (faucet handle) the energy would go directly through the heart,
With the dog unable to touch both..and not grounded. the charge would be absorbed by his larger body mass not taking a route through the heart...also the thicker pads on his feet would not conduct as well...so the dog might not even get a shock.

taser, if the

available for

Very interesting. thanks again.
Phil Scott

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Phil Scott wrote:

My model used two parallel strips, so the charge is stored in the underlying dielectric. This is a much less efficent capacitor than, say, an expanded foam tile with foil on both sides.

The thickness of the tape is not important - the charge is stored in the dielectric substrate - the thicker, the lower the capacitance and the less the stored charge. By placing the two conductors side by side, edge next to edge, the capacitance and stored charge is much less than would be if the overlapped, with dielectric between.

No 9V isn't going to cause a shock, even with wet hands. You can stick a 9 V battery on your tongue to test it without fatal results (although I don't recommend it. If you have a test child, try wetting its hands and get it to grip the probes of a multimeter on ohms... on high ranges that is probably 9V..

Parallel strips means that the dog will bridge the conductors at some time. With a few kV, even with only a very tiny stored charge, it will certainly feel it.

With the right voltage and charge it will keep rats at bay very effectively. Take two parallel foil strips glued on a plank that is dropped across a barn doorway and connect them to a suitable low power inverter. You can still drive tractors in and out, over the plank, and leave the door open. Keeps the animals in and the rats out...
--

Sue






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Power from your panelboard will go through a faucet in order to get to the grounding system and back to the panelboard. Power from a battery has no interest in a faucet because there is no path back to the battery that way.
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On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:37:14 -0500, operator jay put forth the notion that...

Not even one of those fancy Kohler designer faucets?
--
Checkmate

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