Fabricating a 9 volt counter top electrical shocker

intellectually

where I asked for

the perimiter of a

puppy to stop

"Scat Mat", but

that runs off a 9

coverage in the

$10.00...including the 9

own "Scat Mat"

perimeter of a

feet and/or nose

behavior

young kids, ages

forget it...its too dangerous for the kids.. those mats would be safe probably but you couldnt make them yourself for

37 dollars if you time is worth more than 7 dollars an hour. buy one mat and move it around.

Just get a dart gun and nail the pooch in the ass every time he jumps up where he shouldnt. that would be sporting.

Or you could wait till he matures a bit then just talk to him man to man.

Phil Scott

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 04:38:23 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

It must be "relatively" safe for your kids, but you're worried about spending 37 bucks on something that was probably designed by someone who knew what the hell they were doing? Buy the damned thing or get rid of the dog... jeez. I doubt that you could build one for less, and who knows what you'd end up with?

With all due respect to Phil & Checkmate, these are NOT the answers I was looking for!

If someone makes a post to the Alternative Music alias asking for the whereabouts of that rare "Siouxsie and the Banshees" album from 1981, he does not want to receive a reply stating, "Dude, why are you wasting your time listening to Siouxsie? You ought to be listening to Frank Sinatra, instead!"

My time definitely is worth more than $7.00 an hour, but I do have several free hours each evening to play with, and that time I bill out at the rate of $0.00 per hour. Sometimes I spend that time building radio controlled airplanes -- of course, I could "save" that time by buying a ready-made kit for $200.00, but, hey, who's couting?

The only conclusion that I can reach so far is that a simple shocking device that runs off a single 9 volt battery is beyond the capabilities of either Phil or Checkmate to enumerate...or perhaps only the engineers at "Scat Mat" are smart enough to put something like this together. As for the "safe for kids" spec requirements, I meant only that it should be relatively benign (the shock notwithstanding) should one of the kids accidentally touch it.

answers I was

asking for the

from 1981, he

wasting your

Frank Sinatra,

do have several

out at the rate

radio controlled

ready-made kit

shocking device

capabilities of either

No thats not it.... what is....is... you could easily create something could kill a child by stopping the heart... if its potent enough to get though the pads on a dogs feet, it could easily be too hot for a childs thinner skinned fingers .. its also by the sink, providing a ground path to the heart of the child were to touch a fawcet and the device at the same time.... the risks of death could be low... depending.....but even a 1 in 10,000 chance would too high..and with a home built device the risks would be in that range.

Thats one reason you got the reply you did..

. the other reason is costs...with the parameters you gave, no exposed wire, that means you would have to create your own pad...and that sort of thing is not at all easily made on a one at a time basis... and remember it has to be intrinsically save.. that means safe and proven save in all sorts of scenario's...spilt salt water on it... just wet.. person or dog also grounded...etc.

you will not have the means to test whatever you build well enough to insure its safe... you just wont. So its a waste of time.

Kapeesh?

Phil Scott

for the "safe for

relatively benign

accidentally touch it.

There are a dozen guys on this NG that could design that system...but would not dream of turning plans loose in this situation...also the plans and investigation on mat design and construction etc would take at least 10 to 20 hours... free? So you can save 30 bucks and if you dont build it right someone could die? (very low risk but its happened). and the device not having been UL tested could still be unsafe.

I am a consulting mechanical/ electrical engineer.. for a salary thats about $50 an hour, free lance the tab is $100 to $150 per hour ..short duration its the high figure.

so 10 hours of research on conductive pad materials, and bullet proof limiting circuits is real light...but lets say 10 hours...thats 1500 dollars... and I dont wish to give away that much time...in what is totally a non viable, unsafe effort to save 30 bucks or whatever the reason.

its just not bright...thats all.

Lets say someone gave you plans though ... and your wife got a shock and claimed that it made her vagina snap shut .. you'd sue... then my general liability insurance carrier would get burnt... and Id be paying triple liability the rest of my life because of your wifes vagina problem... so YOU can save 30 bucks?

Then you insult me and others when we try to clue you in for free.?

this post took be 20 minutes or so... thats 50 dollars minimum...plus my first reply and those of others... a thank you would be more appropriate than insults.

Phil Scott

message

most intellectually

where I asked

around the

Golden

such a device

for a single 3" x

at least 4 of

$10.00...including the 9

my own "Scat Mat"

perimeter of a

her feet and/or

verboten behavior

young kids, ages

Fair enough.

You articulated your case well, and unless someone else come along with a foolproof method for jolting my Golden Retriever without shocking my kids, I guess I need to consider forking over $50-$100 to the experts at "Scat Mat". (I'm already envisioning a 72-page legal disclaimer document that accompanies the actual plastic shock pad.)

The time needed to fabricate something on my own was never a consideration (in any event, how much time could this take even in the worst case scenario? two, maybe three hours, tops?). But safety *IS* paramount, especially with 3 young kids in the mix. I'm surprised that a $3.00 9 volt battery is intrinsically dangerous, even potentially life threatening, in an application such as this, but I'll take your word for it as I'm not an electrical engineer; even 1 in 10,000 odds are not worth the risk.

The frustrating part is that our puppy Goldie will learn to keep off the counters after no more than 2 or 3 shock therapy sessions, which translates to $17-$33 per session with the plastic 9 volt shrink. Maybe I ought to look on EBay for other dog owners who have already forked over the cash for "Scat Mats" and are now looking to unload them now that Fido has learned to keep off the kitchen counters.

Thanks for clearing things up, Phil. I understand.

One last thing: I made my previous post having only read through the 1st half of your 2nd reply (that is, up to the word "Kapeesh"). This post addresses the second half of your reply, which -- among other things -- included references to my wife's vagina.

Please don't confuse "sarcasm" with an "insult". I did employ sarcasm in my response, but I did not insult you (or at least, I did not *intend* to insult you). In fact, my initial reply to both you and Checkmate was no more sarcastic than either of the less than helpful, and highly sarcastic, initial responses I received.

When I asked for advice on how to build an inexpensive 9 volt counter top electrical shocker it was not strictly to "save $30 bucks" [actually, it's more like $160 bucks if I buy 4 of the pads] but also because I enjoy building things and I assumed (mistakenly, it now appears) that fabricating a device running off a common 9 volt battery didn't constitute rocket science. I was also trying to be a conscientious consumer by not buying a plastic-based product destined to have an extremely limited lifespan, only to see it end up in a landfill within a years of its initial purchase date.

Finally, let's not confuse an informal "spec" tied to an anonymous request for advice posted to a public newsgroups with a formalized, written specification requiring the formalized and costly input of a Professional Engineer.

Having said that, I do appreciate the time you have taken to reply...although, sadly, I doubt that my wife does.

What have you got in your scrap box? Any old electronic flashguns or cameras with electronic flash? These would, with a little modification, provide the basis for a voltage source. Any rolls of aluminised wall insulation? That could provide the basis for the mat. The modifications needed would include limiting the discharge current and just sticking the first resistor that comes to hand will not do. That you have to ask almost certainly shows that you don't have the expertise to take this project on - so don't.

Far safer may be a tweeter or two out of the same scrap box, a 555/6 timer and maybe a passive IR detector or a break-light beam detector. A good burst of near "ultrasonic" noise should do the trick. 555s do work quite well as touch switches too - used in conjuction with some glass-break detection tape.

I think that you may be a little wrong and that this could be a good intellectual challenge - however, unless you know exactly what you are doing with electrickery it must be left to those that do and remain theoretical rather than practical.

along with a

shocking my kids, I

experts at "Scat Mat".

that

consideration

worst case

You will spend 5 times that long just finding suitable mat materials, and the conductive grid and the step transfomer required....

But safety *IS* paramount,

a $3.00 9 volt

threatening, in an

I'm not an

risk.

to work the 9 volts has to be stepped up to many thousands of volts...(but amperage drops)... the high voltage is what permits the skin penetration that you dont get with 9 volts in most but not all cases.

keep off the

which translates

Maybe I ought to

over the cash for

has learned to

yer welcome.

message

the

album

you

I

bill

buying a

simple

heart...

feet, it

fingers

heart

same

depending.....but

gave, no

a

intrinsically

or

well

waste

this

and

free?

the

a

to

say 10

got a

you'd

get

life

30

for

thank

"rec.pets.dogs.behavior"

5-month-old

$37.00

need

fabricate

the

3

through the 1st

This post

other things --

Well its happened... would you have prefered another example? I thought that one would entertain those you had been a bit off center with though.

employ sarcasm in my

*intend* to

Checkmate was no

highly sarcastic,

volt counter top

[actually, it's

buy 1 and move it...when the puppy learns. errrr.. move da pad.

but also because I enjoy

that fabricating

constitute rocket

You dint know about the transformer needed and the very high voltage required.

I was also trying to be a conscientious consumer by not buying a

lifespan, only

purchase date.

Ok Ok I take it back...I hope your wifes vagina does not snap shut.... is that better?

anonymous request

written

Professional

A registered PE, or even just someone considered to be pro can be sued for all he is worth for giving advice that can be seen as bad. When a balcony collapsed at a chicago hotel about

20 years ago... structural engineers who had simply been in the building on other business were sued for not mentioning the visibly obvious design flaw..as PE's they had a commission to protect the public that went beyond thier 40 hours a week or paid contracts.

No sense of humor on the issue apparently ..thats bad. she is over stressed maybe. Take her out to dinner tell her over candlight that you are glad nothing has snapped shut.

Phil Scott

message

the

album

you

I

bill

buying a

simple

heart...

feet, it

fingers

heart

same

depending.....but

gave, no

a

intrinsically

or

well

waste

this

and

free?

the

a

to

say 10

got a

you'd

get

life

30

for

thank

"rec.pets.dogs.behavior"

5-month-old

$37.00

need

fabricate

the

3

most intellectually

where I asked for

the perimiter of a

Retriever puppy to stop

"Scat Mat", but

that runs off a 9

coverage in the

$10.00...including the 9

my own "Scat Mat"

perimeter of a

her feet and/or nose

behavior

young kids, ages

good idea. myself though Id just goose the pooch with a chop stick.

Phil Scott

practical.

For what it's worth, we got a cat to avoid counters that it lept onto with an array of thumb tacks. Zero volts, and useful for other things after the animal is trained.

Phil,

You'd be right at home on the rec.pets.dogs.behavior newsgroup.

Well-intentioned dog owners typically post an innocent enough question ("Skippy keeps pooping on the carpet and I keep scolding him, but it doesn't seem to work. What am I doing wrong?")

Within seconds, there are at least a half-dozen canine "do-gooders" and "know-it-alls" jumping all over the poor poster, none of whom address the initial question but all of whom can draw from an endless fountain of righteous indignation (just like you).

***

"It's obvious that if Skippy is crapping on your carpet you have no business being a dog owner in the first place!"

"The reason Skippy is soiling your carpet is because you're a rotten owner! You don't even deserve to own a fish, let alone a dog. Loser!"

"You're scolding him? That's outrageous! I'll have you know that I'm reporting you to the ASPCA right now!"

***

So far, after a total of 11 posts to this thread, I've received only one reply that is even worth reading: from Palindr?me, who made a number of reasonable alternative suggestions, while at the same time underlining the dangerousness of my initial proposal without being preachy, condescending or crude.

Apparently, these are traits that you have not yet mastered...and probably never will.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I actually like the idea of rigging up some kind of break-light beam detector connected to a loud horn (or maybe even an old camera flash unit). My daughter is very much into "spy stuff", and she recently received a "Spy Kit" that has a crude break-light beam detector. She hooks it up to her door to dissuade her brothers from sneaking into "Spy Central HQ". I'm sure she'd be willing to let me borrow this for a day to two to teach Goldie to keep off the kitchen counters.

Thanks for the advice; I may try this suggestion if the stainless steel guillotine I'm planning to build in my garage fails to convince Goldie to stop jumping up.

Raise the table higher with some cement blocks !!

?????

stainless steel

convince Goldie to

spring loaded or gravity?

Phil Scott

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 19:01:45 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

I'm afraid that's pretty-much the way Usenet works in just about any group. Here's an idea that you might find more palatable: If you're convinced that you can make the necessary conductive pads to make this whole thing work, and it's worth the time it'll take you to do it (which nearly everyone in this group will probably tell you you've grossly underestimated) why not buy one of the commercially available dog zappers, and parallel the included pad with your fabricated pads to extend the area of coverage?

I think you're right that I've underestimated the amount of time it will take to do this properly; realizing this, I'm not going to do anything on my own.

I suppose I can be forgiven for not knowing much about the mysteries of electrical engineering, but I seriously thought I might get an initial reply like the following:

***

"Hey Armchair: this shouldn't be to hard to, but I wouldn't want to hook the contraption up until the kids have gone to bed. If you elminate them from the equation, then building this thing will be much easier. Anyway, here's what you need:

• a 9 volt battery connector from Radio Shack

• 2 long strands of thin, bare wire

• a roll of electrical tape

• etc. etc.

Here's what you do: solder the strands to the battery connector outputs, and then run the wire strands around the perimeter of the table, keeping them within 2mm of each other but making sure they don't touch; use electrical tape every 6 inches or so to hold down the wire; this will keep the dog from getting tangled up in it but will still expose enough raw wire to give her a good jolt when she touches both wires. Etc., etc.,"

***

Obviously, I don't have any idea what I'm talking about. On the other hand, call me "Old School", but a counter top electrical shocker (provided the kids are removed from the mix) still doesn't strike me as Rocket Science requiring an advanced degree in EE, even if I don't understand all of the nuiances of electrons.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 05:28:36 GMT, Armchair Bronco put forth the notion that...

When I was a kid, I went to Disneyland and was fascinated by a gadget they had in the Main Street Arcade that would shock you with increasing voltage, and "score" you on how much you could tolerate. I went home and rigged up a dry cell through a buzzer and a transformer, producing enough voltage to make it pretty damned uncomfortable to hang onto. It didn't kill me, so I guess it was safe, but if I had used a larger battery capable of more amperage, it could possibly have produced a lethal combination of voltage and current. Today's solid state circuits are more sophisticated, but I think you can understand why people here are reluctant to suggest such a contraption, not knowing if it would end up being built or used in a safe manner. Even if someone here gave you directions on a device that was safe to use, just substituting one component... intentionally or unintentionally, could make it lethal. Sometimes it's more helpful not to help.