On Sun, 18 Jun 2006 08:29:43 -0700, potnisanish wrote:
You don't say what length of wire is a "roll", so I can't confirm or not
whether the price has jumped.
That said, if the price has risen, no doubt the price of copper has had a
big impact.
TTYL
T&E (Twin & Earth) in the UK has also jumped in price, due to
the increase in price of copper due to heavy demand from China.
However, not by anywhere near the amount you cite above.
Well if that don't just tip your scales!
Over here, we have pennies that are 99.7 percent ZINC. A clad strip
is used to coin them, and it is even done in such a way as to cover
the edges with copper when struck as well.
Next thing ya know, Zinc will be going up too!
RoHS will likely have a hand in that.
I read "somewhere" that even with the zinc, the $.01 piece cost more than
$.01 to make.
I don't know about the UK, but the time has long since past for the US to be
making the smallest coin ($.01).
I think it would be nicer to put the value back into it.
A kid should still be able to walk down to the corner store and buy
a penny stick of bubble gum.. Not that a good parent would let their
kid out alone in this world, but I speak of better times past... in
so many ways.
Well, "Penny Candy" was just about history when I will still sort of a "kid"
back in the 1950s.
Since then the cost of just about everything has gone up by a factor of from
5 to 10 times. That's sufficient reason to give the $.01 piece the heave
ho.
If we enter another round of inflation the US should either seriously
consider dropping both the $.05 and the $.10 and/or issue some "new"
currency that's 1/10 the value of the old stuff.
On 6/24/06 9:36 PM, in article 449e12ca$0$ snipped-for-privacy@dingus.crosslink.net, "John
It is clear to me that the average inflation factor over my lifetime is
about 40. Not all price increase is inflation. Similarly, not all price
stability is indicative of no inflation.
Postage is a good example of a service whose price increase is bitterly
opposed by most politicians. First class postage has gone up by a factor of
20 during my lifetime. That is in spite of increased productivity from
automatic sorting machines, zip codes and all that.
One common fallacy is to equate price increase with decline in the value of
money. The electronics industry is one in which price has remained constant
or even gone down. You can buy a much better television set now for about
the same number of dollars than in about 1960. Nevertheless, because of
increased productivity of electronic components, the price should possibly
be lower.
On the other hand, when the price of a scarce commodity goes up, it is not
necessarily a sign of inflation. Certainly, in the US, copper has to be
extracted from poorer ores as the better ones get consumed. It takes more
effort and capital investment for that. Price increase of that nature is not
inflationary but indicative of necessarily lowered standards of living that
will be forced upon us by a poorer environment. That is not to say that
there is no inflation in the price of copper.
As far as I can see, the primary driver of inflation in the US is the
Congress with their profligate deficit spending. Almost all politicians like
to spend--Democrat and Republican alike! They just want to spend on
different things.
One Congressman asked about how he managed to get reelected so many times
said, "I always voted against tax increases and never voted against an
appropriation." We are also our own enemy because we reelect them.
Bill
-- Ferme le Bush
Simple. The price of copper has gone up. Here in the SF Bay Area you
can get $1.65/lb. at the recyclers for #12 THHN ***with*** insulation.
I know a lot of electrical contractors are hurting because the price is
going up so rapidly. One in particular under bid their job by 50K
because the price of copper went up so much from time of bid.
The last time it peaked we got stuck will Al wire in homes that caused lots
and lots of problems.
Maybe "this time" the technology will be up to the job. If the problems
are truly solved then copper wiring for power will go the way of the dodo.
On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 18:13:49 -0400, "John Gilmer" wrote:
NOFI, but there _is_ a tried and tested fix available for decades.
It's called 'abandoning 120V' :-P
(Go figure:
Utility-side and 'power hungry' devices 120-0-120 => 240-0 = same power
with 33% less copper
Replacing 120V appliances with 240V ones = 1/2 current = same power with
50% less copper
But seriously, unless someone invents some conductive polymer that
rivals copper in both conductivity and price ('alternative'
metals/alloys obviously won't qualify), phasing out 120V would be a damn
good start at slowing down the copper price hike and keeping wiring
affordable!)
Depends on how you "do things."
If you require a ground wire, then you only save 25% of the copper (savings
depend upon the relative sizes of the neutral and ground conductors.) But
many 240 volt appliances have 120 volt motors and timers and lamps.
Folks like to have 120 volts for "small stuff."
Unless the government steps in and requires 240 volt for anything that draws
more than 9 amps, it just will not happen.
True. But only if you go 100% unbalanced and give up 120 stuff (or pay the
penalty of transformers all over the place.)
Well, expensive copper has just about permanently priced itself out of a lot
of applications. It's still used for a lot of residential plumbing but
some of the techniques used for plastic have been transferred to copper.
Next step is to just drop the copper in the first place.
Right now houses keep going up and up in price and folks just don't care
about saving a few $100 in wiring. But when the market shifts and the
builders have to pinch every penny or go out of business, I bet Al will be
back. If will have some kind of "lifetime" guarantee.
The 3-wire, single phase 110/220 volt system was deliberately picked
by the Rural Electrification Association in the early days of the
Roosevelt administration becuase it "did" and still does offer the
maximum in safety (most circuits at the lower 110V. level),
flexibility (Two voltage levels available, the higher 220 for
heavy-duty circuits), and simplicity (the ability to power 10 HP and
larger motors) while using single phase transfomer banks. The common
neutral with the higher voltages also minimizes voltage drop when the
loads are balanced.
Keep in mind that this was in the days before GFCI's and any solid
state electronics. The US Government was extending light & power to
the farms of the land and was looking to do it as economically as
possible.
The rejected the choice of the Euro-Continental model, essentially
bringing 3-phase primarys to a central town transformer and using
thick secondary conductors to serve 200 houses or so from one
facility.
American farms were different than what geographically was found in
Europe. Rural Europeans tended to live in clusters in small towns
and villages surrounded by farm fields. America, on the other hand,
consisted of isolated farm houses on each plot of land separated by
great distances. The single phase model, typically served by a set
of poles with a simple neutral and hot primary wire (no crossarms
necessary) and a small distribution transformer at the end made the
most sense.
Beachcomber
Beachcomber
Where I grew up (upstate NY) all the really old stuff from that era in
rural areas was two hots on a crossarm, no neutral. Everything seemed
to be wired delta then.
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