Impressioning - what file to use?

Sorry, pressed the wrong button, sent it out to early *g*
So here once again:
Hi!
When impressioning a key, what kind of file do you use? My problem is, here in germany we have two common angles of the cuts, 90 deg. and 110 deg. 90 is no problem at all, but how can I file a 110 deg. cut? Up to now I use a round file, the keys work like a charm, but they do not look very professional, and it is not so easy do duplicate them on a key cutting machine.
Any ideas out there? :) Thank you very much!
regards - Ralph

look for a #4 PIPPIN... its NOT cheap.. but works better than the pure round IMO.
ONCE you get a key impressioned, then grab calipers and start measuring.. THEN code cut a key..to factory depths.
--Shiva--

I like the round ones. getting the geometry correct is just a matter of practice. Try this exercise, file a key to make a duplicate. By carefully using the tip of the file as well as the thicker part, you ought to be able to get real close to the original geometry.
I don't worry about duplicating the geometry of the original, my geometry may vary depending on the biting of the lock.

In fact, I like them, too. They work even smoother than the original keys...
Thank you for the hints so far!
regards - Ralph

I learned on a round ("rat tail") file but once I used a pippin, there was no going back. I still have the round one as a spare but I don't think I've even taken it out of the tube in 20 years.
However, I get much better results by using a code machine of Curtis clipper. About the only time I break out the file is when it's non-automotive of running back and forth to the truck is impractical. And sometimes on car locks when for whatever reason, I'm not getting good results with the clipper, I'll switch to the file.
I'll give you another tip (no pun intended) regarding the file.... When you get it, break the very tip (about 1/8 to 1/4 inch) off and touch it to a grinder so it's no sharp on the end. Before I did that (broke it totally by accident) I went through a lot more pairs of pants.
Once you catch the tip of that sharp file on the knee of a pair of pants, their days are numbered. The little tiny hole will get bigger and bigger every time you wash them.
Bobby

Wouldn't a 110 degree cut simply require tilting the file? It will take practice to get near 110 consistantly, but that's part of the fun.
Daniel

"Bob DeWeese, CML" snipped-for-privacy@forme.com wrote in message
Here in the tropics I wear shorts, and have quite a few scars on my left knee due to the impressioning file. I haven't used it much lately since I bought a great new reader scope. Great to use, even for old farts like me that have to wear graduated lense glasses. Some really good tools comming out of Taiwan these days. I also got a 7 pin Gem / ACE pick, and it is just soooo fast to pick these locks. Most top quality gem lock cyls will be open within 10 seconds with this tool, and even nasty ones will fall under 20 seconds. It is amazing how many extra jobs you can fit into each day when you have good tools and machinery, also better for your health, less stress / physical factor, at least thats what I tell the missus when I get that 'MUST HAVE" $3000 machine. (works for fishing gear too). :-)

What is a "reader scope".
Steve Paris wrote: > "Bob DeWeese, CML" snipped-for-privacy@forme.com wrote in message > > >>Once you catch the tip of that sharp file on the knee of a pair of pants, >>their days are numbered. The little tiny hole will get bigger and bigger >>every time you wash them. > > > Here in the tropics I wear shorts, and have quite a few scars on my left > knee due to the impressioning file. I haven't used it much lately since I > bought a great new reader scope. Great to use, even for old farts like me > that have to wear graduated lense glasses. Some really good tools comming > out of Taiwan these days. I also got a 7 pin Gem / ACE pick, and it is just > soooo fast to pick these locks. Most top quality gem lock cyls will be open > within 10 seconds with this tool, and even nasty ones will fall under 20 > seconds. It is amazing how many extra jobs you can fit into each day when > you have good tools and machinery, also better for your health, less stress > / physical factor, at least thats what I tell the missus when I get that > 'MUST HAVE" $3000 machine. (works for fishing gear too). :-) >

A reader scope is used to peer into the key hole. The wafers of most cars are designed in such a way that you can determine the height of each cut if you can accurately measure the difference in the height of each wafer. The cuts are generally 10 to 20 thousandths different from one height to the next. Many cars use only 4 or so possible depths.
You can used the advance knowledge of the depths used for a particular brand of lock to cut a key that matches what you see in the key-hole. Each brand has the wafers at specific distances from the stop and these are published in locksmith reference books.
If the first key does not work, you'd cut each spot one depth deeper. They make guages that make it easier to evaluate the differences in the wafers.
Most often there are enough differences between the tallest and shortest wafer for you to tell definitively whether you have the correct bitting on the first try. It's easy to see that if there are 4 depths for that model and you see 4 different heights, that you will be able to retermine which is height 0 and which is hieght 4. Likewise if there's .080 inch difference between the shallowest cut and the deepest, and you see .080 diffeerence in height.
This technique is known as sight reading.
Daniel

Is what you call a reader scope the same as an otoscope? Thanks.
dbs_ snipped-for-privacy@tanj.com wrote: > Paul snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net wrote: > >>What is a "reader scope". >> > > > A reader scope is used to peer into the key hole. The wafers of most > cars are designed in such a way that you can determine the height of > each cut if you can accurately measure the difference in the height of > each wafer. The cuts are generally 10 to 20 thousandths different from > one height to the next. Many cars use only 4 or so possible depths. > > You can used the advance knowledge of the depths used for a particular > brand of lock to cut a key that matches what you see in the key-hole. > Each brand has the wafers at specific distances from the stop and these > are published in locksmith reference books. > > If the first key does not work, you'd cut each spot one depth deeper. > They make guages that make it easier to evaluate the differences in > the wafers. > > Most often there are enough differences between the tallest and shortest > wafer for you to tell definitively whether you have the correct bitting > on the first try. It's easy to see that if there are 4 depths for > that model and you see 4 different heights, that you will be able to > retermine which is height 0 and which is hieght 4. Likewise if there's > .080 inch difference between the shallowest cut and the deepest, and > you see .080 diffeerence in height. > > > This technique is known as sight reading. > > > Daniel

Similar to an otoscope. An otoscope does not have a probe on the end to push down the wafers so you can see the wafers behind it, and a scale to help you judge the heights.
Daniel

Bobby,
BTW, did you know the sharp pointed swiss Grobet files are actually illegal. They are against OSHA safety codes because of the point. Your suggestion to break the tip off will not only safe pants, it will save some very painful puncture wounds. But, that having been said, I use that point on my file to get my cut started right exactly where I see the mark. Starting with the larger circumference farther up the file, I find I'm not as accurate. I don't do a lot of impressionsing. When you talk about using a code machine, how do you use it? Do you cut the key to all "0" cuts to begin, see which one/ones mark and cut the "1" depth there etc? I've never used my code machine to impression. Sounds like a great idea.
Bob

"Bob B." wrote in message: . If you go back and re-read the posts that pertain to your question, you would be able figure out that you would only use the code machine AFTER you have produced a working key by impressioning the lock...
Take measurements of the impressioned key in order to determine the factory specs to cut the key to...
The rationale for this practice would be that the cuts made by the file (is anyone EVER perfect to factory angles when filing) are tough to duplicate and might also cause problems with repeated usage in the lock (such as binding etc)...
Evan, ~~formerly a maintenance man, now a college student...

my thought, is how well the lock marks.. Cut everything-lets assume an automotive for example, a 1.
certain place marks-cut a 2. try again. and keep going.. and for 'code machine' I HAVE substituted a Curtis Clipper.
conversely, if I got the key close, sometimes I will code cut one to what it appears to be-1 depth of cut. and try, this lets me fine tune, quickly and give me a 'check of my work'.. I do this for instance on 10 cut Ford doors and Chrysler doors..I find sometimes that it can be off 1 cut and 'still work', whereas if I back up I get it to where its right..
--Shiva--

Do you have a link to a reader scope so that I can look at it? Thanks.
dbs_ snipped-for-privacy@tanj.com wrote: > Paul snipped-for-privacy@comcast.net wrote: > >>Is what you call a reader scope the same as an otoscope? Thanks. >> > > > Similar to an otoscope. > An otoscope does not have a probe on the end to push down the wafers > so you can see the wafers behind it, and a scale to help you judge > the heights. > > Daniel

I like using a round file to get things to set right.Then I use a flat or triangular to work in the angles.
Many times I don't even mess with the angles, especially with wafer locks.As long as the key works smooth.
I have an old file of my dad's.It has a straight handle, but the file part is round and tapered and curved. Very useful at times.
When I impression on a blank, I use a fingernail file-or emery board. I use the coarse side first to get out the big pits and bumps, then the fine side to buff it up.
goma.

I use the other (narrower) side of the piping file to start the cut. The flip it to the more rounded side.
I Exactly. It works great!!! Try it! Cut all the shallowest cuts on the key. If the shallowest cut is a "no cut", make the cut just deep enough so that it goes all the way across the key. Then do what needs to be done, put it back in the machine and cut those spacers where you would normally file down the next correct depth. I don't want to go into too much detail on an open forum, but you can email me if you like. (In fact, email me anyway. I want to tell you something off the NG)
Bobby
PS - In case you hadn't noticed, I started saving my pearls yesterday.
But if I ever feel moved by the spirit to share testimony with a customer (because I see a specific need) I would never hold back for fear of losing a customer. Some things are far more important than money. :)
It's not like I beat every customer over the head with my pocket New Testament, but if the situation calls for sharing the gospel....

This sounds to me like patent bunk. If you feel this is the case can you direct us to the specific regulation prohibiting sharp tools?

Agreed, that's implausible. There may be specific situations in which specific tools are discouraged as being needlessly dangerous... but there are lots of pointed tools out there, because points do have uses. Consider an ice pick, or a dental tool... or an ordinary nail, for that matter.
For our purposes, a sharply pointed file may indeed be both overkill and needlessly dangerous, but I have trouble believing it's actually illegal in any but the most paranoid local jurisdictions.
Having said that: If you carry a pointed tool in your pocket without a suitable sheath, you're begging for trouble. If you insist on putting it in your pocket, blunting it may be a good precaution... but carrying it in a suitable roll in your toolkit instead strikes me as an equally good solution, and probably better for the tool.