Best bench setup for hand sharpening drill bits

I have picked up 2 of those General drill bit jigs that mount next to a bench grinder, I need to know the best setup for sharpening my own bits. Ive got plenty of area,
several motors, arbors and many different grit wheels. I read the drill doctor uses diamond wheels, would this be better or if not then what size grit and speed would be best? Ive even thought of using one on a course wheel then one mounted on a fine grit & I could even mount the motor/wheel flat like a turntable and grind on the wheel face instead of the side. Anyway I would like to know the best setup sense I will be starting from scrach & change speed wheel type & grit, angle ect.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    No -- it would not -- unless you are working *purely* with carbide drill bits. Hot diamond combines with the steel to make a harder steel, and dull the diamonds.

    Well ... what *I* like is no longer made. Dumore made a drill sharpener sort of like the General turned on its side, with a built in motor and a two grit compound stone -- a narrow part for the tiny bits and a coarser one for the larger bits. (The thing would handle bits from #70 up through 1/4" -- but no larger than that.
    The bits were held in a special drill chuck, with a collet for each size to steady it near the tip, aligned using a mirror and a magnifying glass to have the flute edge orientation correct, and then the grinding was done with a lever to slide the bit over from the mirror to the wheel, and then you press down on a thumb lever to grind one flute, then rotate the chuck 180 degrees (built to stop at the right point) to grind the other flute.
    I *would* like it to be able to grind split points, but it can't, and neither can the General.
    The Drill Doctor can -- only for the larger bits. Smaller ones tend to come out as disasters unless you just go for the standard point. :-)
    Good Luck,         Don.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Maybe I get a chance to offer you some advice now, DoN. I know it's my turn.
Split point drills aren't accomplished by gashing the second cut into the back of the freshly ground cutting face. They don't require a grinding wheel with a crisp 90 degree edge on it.
I've ground many sizes of split points by making the long ground facet at the back of the flutes (trailing sides) first. These facets need to be equal for both flutes.
Then the point is ground in the normal way, and the split points suddenly appear, as if by magic.
It seems counter-intuitive, I know. I've mentioned this method here in RCM at least several times, and not once has anyone said: hey, that does work, so I suspect that anyone that read it assumed it wouldn't work.
What's there to lose by trying it? If anyone here doesn't have at least one broken drill laying around, then break one and try it, or do it the next time "someone else" breaks a drill.
It really is enjoyable to see it happen when starting with a broken drill, because the finished drill is better than it was before it broke.
I learned this method many years ago when a friend gave me a couple handfuls of used, quality drills with split points. When I first tried resharpening them, I could see the points disappearing. So then I started grinding the trailing side first, then the cutting face, and the split points always remained prominent and sharp.
I'm sure there are optimum angles for the trailing edge grinds, but since I've never had a Darex or other dedicated drill sharpening machine, I eyeballed them (when the eyes were in better shape). One industrial machine shop in a plant I worked in, had a Darex or something similar, and grinding split points was done the same way I described, by placing the drill holder in one hole first for the trailing grinds, then touching up the cutting faces by putting the holder in another hole.
As far as fixturing for the trailing side facet goes, it could be a V in front of the wheel edge, located at a low angle (that would be with the top tipped toward the wheel from vertical) so the position of the web could be seen when the drill is placed in the V. The trailing side grind removes a considerable amount of material, thinning the flutes. Those are the two characteristics of split point drills, less flute width and a smaller cutting face. They resemble the 4 facet grind at a glance.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    That is the tricky part -- since nothing that I have is set up for that. I don't see a way to set up the DuMore for that, either, and working on the smaller bits (1/8" on down) would be pretty tricky.

    O.K. That sounds reasonable.

    I don't remember seeing it -- perhaps you posted it late enough into a thread so I had stopped following it -- especially likely if the thread split into political without a change in "Subject: " header. :-)

    When I have to sharpen a large enough bit to do most of it by hand, I will try it. But I seldom use larger bits, so don't hold your breath.

    Indeed so.

    Great!
    And the only Darex I have has been abandoned by them -- the original "Drill Doctor" which does not have that kind of adjustability.

    *That* tool is what I would love to have.

    Hmm ... perhaps modify the roughing post on the DuMore, designed for taking most of the work out of sharpening a broken bit, so the expensive and difficult to find compound wheel does not get worn as much.

    Agreed.
    And what *is* the difference? I thought that it was just a matter of what the maker chose to call it.
    Thanks,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
I think the difference between split point drills and the 4 facet grind is that the 4 facet method is just 4 flat grinds, there isn't and crown in the cutting face relief, and without split points, there is still the small chisel edge at the web.
In all the years/decades of developing drill sharpeners, the tooling companies haven't come up with a decent drill sharpener that's affordable for the part-time tinkerer/home workshop users. Some Drill Doctor owners will probably argue that, but I've read the complaints of many stating it works OK some of the time, on certain sizes.
I don't like the little General fixture mentioned earlier, because the little twist indexing finger isn't a good feature. That's the little pointy adjustment located under the V (only the worst place for it). The little General fixture makes a great relief grind as it swings, but it will make it anywhere on the end of the drill. So ya play and adjust and try a few grinds, then play and adjust some more until it's leaving the narrowest chisel point, but ya start over as soon as you try another size drill. Besides that problem, the only sensible way to mount the General fixture is on a slide or a mount that allows it to be moved toward/away from the grinding wheel and held in place. Bolting it to a fixed point as suggested in the instruction sheet, sucks.
I'm fairly certain that you already realize the basis of these comments DoN, but I'll add them FWIW.
As the point is ground, the angular rotation of a drill needs to follow a fixed point on the fixture that has a relationship to the twist spiral. Just moving a drill toward the grinding wheel without following the twist will change the orientation of the chisel point.
If the fixed point on the General fixture was on top where it could be adjusted easily, that would be tits. With a conventional grind on a drill, maintaining the narrowest chisel point (at the web) is the key to having a drill that cuts and feeds easily, and a drill that may only rub a hole in something if enough pressure can be put on it. The key to attaining the narrowest web/chisel point width is a fixed point that causes the advancement of the drill to follow the twist.
A while ago, someone was looking for the identity/maker of a drill grinding fixture that was made by Delta (Rockwell/Delta, maybe). It was a couple of arms and a few adjustments with scales which takes up quite a bit of space just to mount the fixture.. considerably more than a sqare foot of space, not including the bench grinder it gets mounted to. You probably need a workspace about 24" square to operate it.
I have one that's similar to the Delta that was made by Kalamazoo, but I haven't used it yet, since all my stuff is waiting for me to locate a new shop. It's got a long sweeping arm and a scale or two, but I suspect that it's performance will depend upon some futzing around too.
It's beyond me why some tool maker hasn't developed a drill sharpener that is as easy to use as zing, rotate, zing for the trailing side grinds, then insert, rotate, lift, rotate and it produces a resharpened drill that as good as factory fresh new.
Beyond me, besides the fact that there aren't many small tool manufacturers left, today.
That's all the motion that the machine shop drill grinder needed to produce perfect split point grinds. I realize that a single drill holder won't suffice for all the sizes up to 3/4", it's just not realistic, and a large portion of the value of a real drill sharpener would be in the precision drill holders.
I've pondered how to make a round drill holder resembling a drill chuck for quite a while, and haven't come up with anything better than modifying a drill chuck. Snugging the chuck jaws against the drill flutes could cause chipping, so gripping the shank would likely be a better approach. Supporting the drill near the point presents another challenge, since bushings for every drill size would be problematic as far as time consuming to make and/or expensive to buy. Something like a camera lens iris might be a possibility. If large drills are to be resharpened, then a small drill chuck would need to be adapted/adaptable upward in size to fit in the same place as the big drill chuck.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:01:38 -0500, "Wild_Bill"
snip

I once ground mine away <G> and made a new one but I have binned it! The destructions suggest rotating the drill until the helix is in contact with the finger. Experience has proved that this is wrong IMHO. When I use the General I rotate the drill until the cutting edge is vertical by eye and clamp it there. Once the first land is ground I leave the setting where it is and rotate the drill until the second land is again vertical

The destructions are reasonably valid with regard to overhang etc but you do need to adjust the jig in and out as you note below.

My fixture has a slotted base! smip
One other point, the grinding position as shown in the instructions is non preferred IMHO. Better to grind on the wheel face above or below the spindle. That way the grind is perpendicular to the edge.
I must say I rarely use my jig. 1 I can grind by hand adequately 2 My drills last a long time primarily because I load them and keep them cutting. A colleague once said when he saw me drilling some steel with a hand power drill "you don't drill holes you punch them". Interesting that my drills were never changed or sharpened but his were always needing replacing <G> Richard
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
The General-type drill fixtures I've got have a slotted base too, Richard, but loosening the nut/bolt will allow the base to rotate, so that's just more futzing around with adjustments.
I agree with your comments regarding the instructions, like many instruction sheets, they didn't get it right.
And like many little handy helper devices, just a little more design work would've made a great little drill grinding fixture that almost anyone could set up and get very good results with very little effort.
Very good lighting, properly placed near the work area is a requirement for sharpening by hand. I used to be quite good at it, but now even with 3 or 5 diopter magnifying lenses, the results aren't as good as when I was using my 20 year old eyes. This is where a fixture that indexes to the twist, and has two locations 180 degrees apart would greatly simplify resharpening, without even seeing the drill point.
I also agree with your comment regarding agressive feed rates and grinding on the wheel face, not the side. When a drill is sharpened properly, there is no reason not to push the feed, using a good cutting lubricant.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:24:18 +0000, Richard Edwards

I have a couple of these "General" fixtures and have been thinking of setting one up in conjunction with my 4 1/2" angle grinder as a roughing sharpener then finishing on my Drill Doctor. Somewhere in connection with this group I have seen picture of an adjustable mount for the "General" fixture where it is moved on round rod ways by means of a lead screw arrangement. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Looking at a General No. 825 from the 60's, if the pivot for the hold- down clamp was moved further outward to reduce its angular rotation, a 'billet' clamp could include a top finger. Unlike the bottom one the contact point would shift lengthwise with drill diameter.
The original Drill Doctor works well enough for me, but I've also been considering putting the General fixture on the surface grinder to use its XYZ motion, and making a sleeve that fits onto Darex chucks with an alignment wire or plate across the end.

I use a small parabolic drill first to avoid fussing with split points.

Bison makes 6 jaw chucks for tool grinding. Not Cheap!! http://brassandtool.com/Chucks-Lathe.html
The Darex chucks aren't bad as long as you don't tighten them more than necessary.
I made this 5C collet nut for sharpening large drill bits in an end mill grinding fixture:

The 1/2" insert centers S&D drills by the shank. The back relief setting grinds a 120 degree point. A long bit will clear the side of the mag chuck while the base is on the poles. I've been downstairs trying it and clearly need to make a spanner wrench to tighten the collets more.
Jim Wilkins
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Nice job on adapting the endmill grinding fixture, Jim.
For others that might be following along, the General-type fixture has been available for decades, and one of mine is a Craftsman, but they're still being made.. and copied, presumably in China sweatshops for the tool importers
http://www.drillspot.com/products/57920/General_Hardware_825_Sharpener_Attachment
Those Bison chuck prices range from almost $100 to over $100 per inch.. ouch, that's just extravagance for a hobbiest.
Your modification recommendation for the clamp on the General fixture would be a very good addition.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

    O.K. That sounds reasonable.

    [ ... ]

    I've seen posted descriptions of a slide mount for the General fixture.

    Of course.

    You might look at the design of the (sadly now discontinued) drill sharpener once made by DuMore.
    Check out the manual at:
    <http://www.d-and-d.com/misc/MANUALS/DuMore/DuMore-Drill-Grinder-manual.pdf
note that it is a PDF file, and one made from scans of a photocopy of the manuals, so it will be easier to read if you download it first, and look at it (or print it) later.
    I got mine in old and rather incomplete form, so here is what I did to get it back to usable shape:
<http://www.d-and-d.com/interesting-tools/DuMore-Drill-Grinder/index.html
    It does not do a split point, but it does do a nice job all the way down to #70 bits.
    [ ... ]

    Pretty close to that with the DuMore -- especially when handling the larger bits (up to 1/4"). The smaller bits are harder to see to line up properly using the mirror and reference edge. It really needs a microscope instead of the magnifying glass.

    That is part of the problem. The cost of good drill bits brand new is low enough to make the number of purchasers of a good sharpening fixture somewhat low as well.

    Well -- what about a nylon jawed chuck? You would need several sets of jaws to cover the full range of sizes given the wear that the larger sizes would experience.
    The DuMore grabbed the shank, and used fixed size collets for each size of bit. The collets were secured by a thumbscrew, and easy to change, and could easily be made in quantity on an automatic screw machine. A lot easier (and cheaper) to make than a set of collets like the ER series collets.
    It used a specialized drill chuck (three rubber flex joined jaws) which used to be used on much older 1/4" electric drill chucks. Unlike the electric drill chuck, which was tightened by screwing onto the shaft, this one has a large knurled collar to close the jaws. The chuck fit in a holder which allowed precisely 180 degree rotation, so you set the bit properly for one flute, and when you have ground it, you rotate the chuck in its holder to position for the second grind. That part is quite rapid.
    Probably what killed the product is the discontinuation of that style of drill chuck and the resulting drying up of the source of the jaw assemblies.
    A normal key type or good Albrecht style keyless chucks are a bit too big in diameter to fit the 180-degree collar -- and don't have the pass-through feature which is needed.
    I later got an almost complete set of the collets, with the fitted box. I could make the few extras needed more easily than a complete set from 1/4" to #70 including fractionals from 1/4" down, number size from #1 down to #70 (skipping #71-#80), and letter size from 'F' down to 'A'.

    The problem with an iris is the limited space around the tip of the drill bit while it is swung for the grind. The collets are probably the most reasonable approach.
    The bushings (collets) were of a design which would be very easy to make with an automatic screw machine.
    The sharpener covers a wide range of point angles, and does adjust the spacing appropriately.

    You would need a much larger wheel and overall system to grow the DuMore approach to larger sizes. Probably 4' by 2' of bench space for a 3/4" drill.
    Enjoy,         DoN.
--
Email: < snipped-for-privacy@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:37:40 -0500, "Wild_Bill"

I am not overly impressed with the split point produced by the Drill Doctor 750. It cuts the trailing edge back too far, to the point that to re-sharpen again, you must grind the drill back and get rid of most of the previous splitting grind. Another problem is that the splitting grind goes past the centerline - can be corrected by adjusting the longitudinal position of the diamond wheel slightly. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
That's what I've read repeatedly, Gerry. Various little problems, but overall, a somewhat useable machine. But if it only sharpens some sizes consistenly, that reduces the number of different fastener sizes that one needs to buy. I suspect that some of the problems are a result of too much plastic being used to make them.
--
WB
.........
metalworking projects
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 03:09:26 -0500, "Wild_Bill"

I have used mine to sharpen drills from 3/32 up to 3/4" with fully satisfactory results. It's just the point splitting that bothers me. Gerry :-)} London, Canada
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.