Carbide Insert 101

I agree with you in most respects.

COMMON carbide inserts are NOT very suitable for small lathes. It's true that negative rake carbide (or even HSS) tools do NOT work well except in rigid machines. It's also true that small low powered machines cannot make the BEST use of carbide.

There are, however, families of small uncoated inserts, mostly triangular, that are VERY sharp, have considerable relief, NO rake, cut with minimal pressure, and work well at most any speed. I use these regularly, on a 6" Atlas, and even on my old round-way Unimat SL. While the rake is zero (flat on top), these cut with less pressure than most positive rake tools (which are less sharp). I can take as heavy a cut, with as good a finish, with these carbides as I can with HSS ... even on the Unimat!

I also use these, and a variety of more common carbide inserts on a 10" Logan. This heavier machine is more forgiving of the commonly available carbides inserts. It still doesn't like negative rake tools much, however.

The advantages of the carbides are that they stay sharp longer than a HSS bit in the same service. I find this especially advantageous in turning soft but abrasive plastics. It is also useful when one has to turn hard materials. The inserts work reasonably well with almost all materials, but there is no advantage when turning softer steels, brass, etc.

Disadvantages include problems with interrupted cuts, the inability (easily) to custom grind odd shaped tools, and higher cost (considerably).

That said, I use HSS for perhaps 90% of my turning needs. The carbide is less versatile, and more expensive. On a small lathe, carbide is NOT the best choice for general work. But, to say it's NOT suitable at all for use in a small lathe, even a Unimat, is just plain WRONG!

Dan Mitchell ==========

Ted Edwards wrote:

Reply to
Daniel A. Mitchell
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Ummm, Ted. The only thing we used that tiny an insert on was one of the shaft gears we used to make. 3" diameter, 670rpm, .022 feed, and

3/16" per side. I don't think any chinese 3n1 is going to come anywhere near reaching what the insert is capable of. Oh yeah. 8620 normalized forging. Industry didn't design carbide for slow light cuts. It's meant to rip metal off as fast as possible. Home shop machines don't have the backbone to handle what the carbide was intended for.
Reply to
Lennie the Lurker

That's only true if you're using coated carbide inserts, and using them right out of the box. On smaller machines, I only use uncoated inserts, and hand hone them for an even keener edge. I'll put the edge I can get on those inserts up against anything you can achieve with HSS (and maintain for more than one second of cutting).

Carbide gets a bad name by people using *coated* inserts right out of the box on small lathes. That doesn't work well at all. But you can put a *very* keen edge on uncoated carbide with a diamond hone.

About the only time I don't use carbide is when doing interrupted cuts (everything you've heard about that is true), or when I need to grind a special form tool.

I even routinely run carbide tooling on my Taig. Lathes don't get much smaller or underpowered than that. Of course carbide performs much better on my larger machines, which have the rigidity and power to really get the most out of it. But the fact that you *can* get a keen enough edge on it to work on a Taig puts the lie to the idea that you can only get a

*sharp* tool with HSS.

Gary

Reply to
Gary Coffman

And this niche is exactly why carbide can be used to advantage in the home shop. Abrasive, and hard material cutting.

Jim

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Reply to
jim rozen

I have always been told that carbide has a certain minimum depth of cut. If you try to cut only 1 thou the toolbit can't quite dig in and cuts part of the time and rides on top part of the time producing a poor finish. This seems to hold true when I used brazed carbide toolbits.

chuck

Reply to
Charles A. Sherwood

Your point?

The considerations of a production shop are kinda irrelevent in a thread on light home shop machines. Your idea of optimum isn't the same as mine.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Edwards

This is true of *any* cutter that is not *really* sharp. If you use uncoated carbide inserts that have a good edge (you can hone them yourself with a diamond hone), they work fine. I've done this lots of time with TNMP-321's in my tool holders.

Ted

Reply to
Ted Edwards

My point: why spend extra, several times extra, for something you have neither the need or the power and rigidity to fully utilize? Carbides were not designed to meet the needs of the HSM, they were designed for machines capable of providing brute force power and rigidity, of which damn few of us have.

Reply to
Lennie the Lurker

For turning abrasive or hard items, carbide is the tool of choice, even for the hsm-type, using a small machine. Certainly worth spending extra under those circumstances.

Jim

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Reply to
jim rozen

Speak for your self! My lady friends have absolutely no complaints, and always want seconds!

Gunner

"You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass." --Japanese Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto

Reply to
Gunner

I bought a bunch of TNMP-321's for

Reply to
Ted Edwards

Yes, and I've said in past threads that I do keep a couple of carbides, but brazed tools, for just such things. Normally, I find that below RC40, the high speed will do it, but your fpm won't be anything to write home about. 4140HT is about RC32, and I have no problems working it with even import HSS. Depending on the alloy, sometimes HSS will do the job on even harder stuff, but you better not get in a hurry unless you like to grind. If I were to pick up the 20 inch Monarch that I'm not making a decision on yet, it might be a different story, but my 12 inch Grizzly isn't a Monarch. As things are, I'll use the carbide to cut through a case hardening, then switch back to HSS for the rest of the machining. The half dozen carbides I have will probably last me for as long as I'm able to move under my own power. The only other place I make an exception, the carbide brazed boring bits are cheaper than good HSS kits, by more than half. other than that, the HSS is more economical for most of the HSM uses.

Reply to
Lennie the Lurker

Because I have not ability to sharpen carbide at home, I stick strictly with the HSS boring bits. I've also found that the mistakes I make when setting up a boring tool will often trash out a carbide tool. Now *that's* expensive.

Jim

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Reply to
jim rozen

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