Fwd: Reno Air Race - Probable conclusion to fatal crash

On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 19:31:47 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"


Sorry, sir, but balls have -much- less lift than an airfoil profile. Hanging your balls out will not replace a missing wing, and your legs will create considerable drag. The Bernoulli principle ensures that you'll have blue balls from the effort, though, with all that cool air flowing over 'em so quickly.
-- If you're trying to take a roomful of people by surprise, it's a lot easier to hit your targets if you don't yell going through the door. -- Lois McMaster Bujold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Larry, just landing that successfully, and then seeing the wing missing would have given me blue balls! <G>
I've had one cockpit electrical fire in the air, and one high-speed malfunction deployment of my landing gear at about 60 knots over the maximum allowable speed at which to deploy the gear. Neither caused me any injury -- only a few very tense moments. (Well, in the case of the gear emergency, it took a half-hour, and three low passes over the tower in Sarasota to ensure I had everything down and locked. I only had two lights!)
Both were simple, non-fatal, not-control-surface, not-engine-failure emergencies that scared the Sh*T out of me. I handled them, sure -- that's only training. But I can't even imagine how scary it must be to survive a mid-air, and still retain control!
LLoyd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:51:28 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

I see no reason why it wouldn't.

Yeah, tense. Too bad it couldn't have been a few high-speed buzz runs past the tower, with all parts in working order, eh?
Dad and I were on an Aero Mexico flight from LaPaz to TJ (our boys-only vacation one year) and they were out of beer. The way the pilot flew, I was certain that he alone had drank it all. In TJ, he nearly overshot the runway, put her down on one wheel, and I could have sworn he was going to take us into the sand at the end of the runway. I swear the nose of the plane was hanging over the end when he pirouetted it in place far enough to get us rolling. That nose wheel was at 90 degrees from normal all that time. Dad was Air Force and he disagreed with my estimation of the landing. I gave it 1 point out of 10, he gave it a 3. His reasoning: the plane still had all its parts.

Oh, no kidding!
-- If you're trying to take a roomful of people by surprise, it's a lot easier to hit your targets if you don't yell going through the door. -- Lois McMaster Bujold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 04:29:31 -0700, Larry Jaques

LOL, the air force must instill that type of humor. One time my dad and I took a commercial flight and when the lady said we can use our seat cushion as a flotation device my dad turned to me and said ' When the water comes in I'm going to scoop it up in my hands and inhale, cause I'm not going back in the sea."
One time I was flying back to Vegas and the pilot must have had to wait and then get in line, like they missed the first opportunity. Anyhow, while meandering around lake mead the plane was banking and pulling up and up and up till I started to worry, then the plane slipped a bit to the left and then it was corrected like someone wasn't paying attention. I looked around like someone else might have noticed that, while I was thinking "Better not stall this thing over the lake or anywhere else !" As I got off I noticed the pilot was a short chick at about 30 and shook my head.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

He said he'd been in 1 and 2-grade landings before, where tails fell off and landing gear collapsed. As an IFR instructor in Anchorage, AK, he'd seen guys forget to drop the landing gear, too. One of his jokes as instructor was to get the new pilot confused, then head him due north. When asked if there was anything in his way, the pilot would say "No." About that time, Dad would pull the pilot's hood off and he'd be looking straight ahead (and up, 20k') at Mount McKinley. Mean! <chuckle> But he taught pilots to pay close attention to the potential hazards in their flight paths.

I guess you had to be there.

And blonde, no doubt?
-- If you're trying to take a roomful of people by surprise, it's a lot easier to hit your targets if you don't yell going through the door. -- Lois McMaster Bujold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:27:49 -0700, Larry Jaques

Yeap, teach them the first rule of flying, don't hit anything with the plane.

Or know he did 3 days after ditching in the ocean.

Nope, short haired brunette.
SW
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Good rule!

Yeah, that could certainly make a difference in an attitude.
-- If you're trying to take a roomful of people by surprise, it's a lot easier to hit your targets if you don't yell going through the door. -- Lois McMaster Bujold
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 12:27:49 -0700, Larry Jaques

Sounds like a classic side slip - pull the nose up to peal off speed, then drop one wing and let it slide a few hundred Or thousand) feet, drop the nose to catch back a few knots, and hit the runway, instead of doing another 2 circuits around lake meade to get down.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca fired this volley in

It was standard approach practice for the Aussie pilots flying Caribous in 'Nam. They wanted to avoid ground fire, so they'd do what amounts to a side-slipping stall right above the threshold, and drop in like a rock, recovering just enough airspeed to flare near the end.
On 1100' PSP runways, that actually looks like an attractive way to make an approach!
LLoyd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:05:58 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

Hey, I've got no problems with it at all - that is, with a little advance warning about what's going to happen. And "Informed Consent" comes into play too.
"Okay people, we're shaving 20 minutes off our approach. Face forward, heads up and well back in your seat, and here we go..."
You don't DO that with a full commercial passenger aircraft without giving the passengers a heads-up. Or at least an apology if you did it inadvertently, "No, that wasn't your imagination."
--<< Bruce >>--
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:57:33 -0700, "Bruce L. Bergman (munged human

Commercial flights into Saigon in the early 1960's used what I think is a modified single engine jet approach. Cross the runway at right angles to the final approach line and do a 270 degree, descending, approach.
The idea was NOT to fly over miles of perhaps uncontrolled terrain at low altitudes.
.
--
John B.

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 9/25/2011 3:29 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

A good landing is any landing you can walk away from. A great landing is any landing in which you can still use the airplane.
(quoted as best I can recall from a cartoon I saw)
Jon
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 20:51:28 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote:
[...]

Lloyd,
Speaking on behalf of college students adjoining the Sarasota Airport, I'd like to express my appreciation for your not overshooting the runway and taking out (say) the Circus Hall of Fame or the NatSci Lab. <grin!>
Frank McKenney
--
...[A]n adventure is, by its nature, a thing that comes to us. It
is a thing that chooses us, not a thing we choose. ... The supreme
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I saw a video of that, and there were six or eight things that were different in the video, and video of the plane on the ground. An obvious photoshop job. Not to say that planes have never landed with one wing, just that one of them was a hoax, and not too good a hoax at that.
Steve
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@rahul.net (Edward A. Falk) fired this volley in

Yeah, well, since I'm not an A&P mechanic, and don't really know how my aircraft is rigged internally, I always check. I have to do a mental double-take to remember that ailerons UP means wing DOWN <G>.
LLoyd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
From Coleen Sport Class Race 8 Crew
*Subject: : Galloping Ghost crash * Ok... here's the skinny on the accident.... A P-51 normally has two trim tabs.. one on each elevator... this one had one and other one was fixed in place.. He was warned about the forces being put on that one tab. It failed.. He had at least a 10G load when the plane pitched up from the loss of the trim tab and he went "nighty night" and probably never woke up.
Here's the theory of the crash from experienced racers. *In 1989 this type of thing happened to another pilot but he lived to tell the story*. *When flying a P-51 at 450+mph you need to have full nose down trim to keep the plane level.* The *elevator trim tab broke off and the aircraft im ediately went in to a 10G climb, confirmed by the G-meter.
*The *pilot came to, from the sudden blackout and realized he had slipped through the shoulder harness and was looking at the floor of the airplane*. He was able to reach the throttle and pull it back to slow down and was able to recover and land.
*Photo one is the airplane taxiing, note the pilots head in the canopy*.
*Fast forward to 2011 Photo two is typical oil canning as a result of the tremendous torque these engines put out at high power*.
*Photo three* is a *photo of GG upside down with a missing elevator trim tab. Note all you see is the back of the pilots head indicating he is being forced down in the cockpit*.
*Photo four* is a *view of the left side nose down with the tail wheel extended and no view of the pilot*. The *tail wheel is held up by hydraulics only with no mechanical uplock, thus indicating a high G-force causing it to extend*.
*Photos five and six* are *from the left side prior to impact*, note *no view of the pilot *and the *tail wheel extended*.
*Photo seven is the debris just after the crash*. *To the right of center above the crowd it appears to be the wing with the leading edge down.
*A friend of mine was supposed to be there but didn't go and he has several friends in the hospital right now. The*people were mostly hit by chunks of concrete, asphalt and aircraft debris*. They were *also hurt by the trampling of people getting out of the way*.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I didn't know you had to maintain full down trim at speed, but a LACK of any trim shouldn't result in a 10G climb, no.
Who is the source of this opinion? Normally, even on performance aircraft, the elevator is always going to move to the most aerodynamically "balanced" position -- and that is not "full up", which required considerable control input force to do.
LLoyd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 9/24/2011 6:04 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

The pitching moment of the main wing airfoil itself is the source of the pitch-up force. Not the tail.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I guess I can only answer, "No, duh!". You don't get a _high_ positive angle of attack on the wing with a loosely trailing elevator. The elevator will more-or-less follow a neutral angle of attack with the wings. It's the elementary aerodynamics of an empenage-equipped aircraft.
LLoyd
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011 06:04:57 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"

A document named "Flight test of P-51H Airplane", dated 14 October 1945, is available on the Web and states in part that:
Elevator trim for take off is 1 degree Nose Heavy, i.e., nose down.
It goes on to state that "at high manifold pressures approaching 90 Hg, where water injection is required, the elevator trim is inadequate and excessive forward pressure on the control stick is necessary to maintain level flight."
So, it appears that even at low (take off) speed the P-51H required some nose down trim and at high power settings the elevator trim was inadequate to maintain level flight and the pilot had to hold forward pressure on the stick.
When operating at high power settings it is obvious that full nose down trim plus additional stick force will be required. If while flying in this condition the elevator trim tab were to separate from the aircraft it is logical to assume that extremely violent nose up forces would occur.
Cheers,
John B.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.