How to paint dials on mill?

I can too, but the DRO saves time. I could drive nails with a rock, but a hammer works better.
Reply to
Stupendous Man
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Never argued that point. The question is, can you work comfortably with the rock? I can. I'm damned proud of that skill, which came at great expense.
In order for any of this to make sense, you must work along side someone that has my type of training. You'll come to realize that a DRO isn't a necessity-----it's a luxury that can be done without. YMMV.
If you think your DRO will substitute for my practical experience, you're in for one hell of a lumpy ride. I've had the best challenge me on machines. They don't often fair well. You have to understand that those of us that worked without such luxuries learned to work well without them.
Harold
Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
Heck, Harold,
The dials on the machine are a luxury that can be done without. There were an awful lot of lathes that did not have them at all, that made parts purely on the skill and experience of their operators, using comparative measuring equipment,and by fit and feel.
That it can be done that way, is by no means an endorsment that it can ONLY be done that way.
I rather like the example you gave of using thumb pressure to control the grinder cut for fine finishing passes. I have done the same on the lathe, though not in order to get to as fine a limit, and demonstrated that simply pushing on the carriage of the lathe, will make a difference in the cut, as will leaning on the machine while it takes a long slow, and fine pass.
I have read that they has accurately measured the tidal influences in a teacup sitting on a table. Shows that if you are picky enough, and have measuring capability, you can account for a great many things, that each have their influence on the final product.
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
I think that its possible you could read the heart rate and any conversation of a lathe operator from the tool marks, much like an Edison Grammaphone.
Reply to
Stupendous Man
snip-----.
I didn't imply that. That is in your imagination. I simply stated that I prefer working that way, and included, somewhere ":YMMV".
Harold
Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
Gang, if anything, the "it can only be done that way" crowd is on the DRO side of the debate. I am grateful to Harold and others for taking the time to explain the manual approach to me. All the fuss over backlash (which is pretty much reflexive to me now) paid off recently when it came time to align an RT with the spindle and then cope with angles on the RT.
Just my 2 cents.
Bill
Reply to
Bill Schwab
I didna say you did, Harold. I simply made a statement to the effect that just because it can be done one way, that it inna the only way.
I'm not trying to pick on ya. Really! :-)
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
If you'd like to be realistic, and this is sure to raise a few eyebrows------the use of a DRO is a perfect avoidance of learning good and proper procedures. For one, when a DRO is employed, operators tend to disregard backlash----which is ever present, and can be difficult for reasons beyond positioning properly.
Want me to say it another way? A DRO is often used in the same way insert carbide tooling is used----to avoid learning something that requires considerable effort. You might say it's the great equalizer------but it's not. That's my point. Those of us that learned machining the hard way learned from the ground up, and can perform tasks routinely that many find difficult, or impossible.
Do I recommend against a DRO? Hell no-----but I do recommend against a DRO if it comes at the price on never learning to work with dials. Dials are always there for you-----and in the hands of talented people, can serve exceedingly well.
Example?
Much of the tooling I built had tolerances in tenths. In all my years in the shop, I worked exclusively with screws, and I had just common machine tools, nothing exotic. I learned to operate my equipment properly------something that surely would not have occurred had I used cheat methods.
Smoke 'em if you've got 'em, but don't go out of your way to buy 'em if you have any talent at all. They're not all they're cracked up to be, and they'll deprive you of a valuable learning experience. The money spent in a DRO could be far better spent on more equipment that actually contributed to one's shop.
Harold
Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
I like having the DRO on the machines at work. I have work to do, and they are a tool that allows me to just get on with it.
That said, I have used the same machines, when the DRO was not working, and the dials were missing (machine crash, my doing). It was different, but the parts I made, met the tolerances, and went out on time. Just took a bit longer.
To the backlash issue. In our shop, backlash IS an issue. DRO or no, one learns rapidly, that if one is going to make a decent part repeatably, one must learn to set up the machine for repeatable results. It's just the way it is. Machining and getting good results, is no less a learned skill, whether it is done with dials, without, or with CNC. End results count for bonus points, rather than the means. I got no problems holding the tolerances "I" must meet. I got my doubts that I would not have a few skeletons in the chip pile (or a LOT of them!)if I were required to meet the tolerances you call out as normal for the parts you made. Different stuff than most of us have to deal with, and overkill, for most work.
One of the things I have to deal with, with our apprentices, is getting them past the idea that they MUST get within a half thou, on a part that states a 20 thou tolerance. Spend the time on the part, that it calls for, not more. Careful work on the high tolerance parts. Fast work on the low tolerance stuff. Get it out, within spec.
I suspect, Harold, that the machines you used were uncommon. They were like as not, actual good, solidly built, and reasonably well maintained machines from good makers, chosen for the shop, as having the ability to work within the tolerances required. Likely a fair far cry from a lathe like a South Bend 9", eh? Trade in your Graziano on a nice benchtop 10" asian product and the reality of working to your old levels, is just a bit different. :-)Ugh! Wadda 'orrible thought!
Were it not for the fact that a decent DRO to fit my lathe and mill, would run me near what I have invested in them, I would have one on each machine in my home "shop". They are nice to have, but not an absolute requirement.
For a guy with eyesight on the go, that can afford one for his hobby, I think a DRO can make life just a little bit more enjoyable.
I agree wholeheartedly with the comment about Carbide tooling! It too is nice to have for some things, but too often is used as a crutch to avoid learning how to grind tools.
It always surprises me to see otherwise rational and capable folk, that truly beleive that grinding a lathe tool is beyond them..
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
snip-----
Don't get the wrong impression. Much of the work I did as a toolmaker wasn't close at all. Even when building a challenging tool, often the majority of tolerances were wide open, with many of the dimensions at my discretion. Assembly hardware for a tool was rarely, if ever, dimensioned. It's expected that a toolmaker know enough about what he's doing to make those decisions. Location of assembling screws and dowel pins, when I build tools, is always such that similar components, or identical components, can't be mounted in the wrong position. They are features that don't matter, and do not receive inspection. The point is, when it's necessary, I can do it, and do it with reliability. I've crowed about this before, but I'll make mention again. I ran my shop for 16 years. I had work in house from Litton Guidance & Control for the entire duration of my operation. In those 16 years, I had five rejects. I didn't accept any work with a tolerance under a tenth, for I was unable to work to such a tolerance with what I had at my disposal. None of the work that was rejected was because of missing dimensions-----although I recall in one case a tool was rejected because I had failed to include an engraved line. That happens when you have your head in a dark place! :-)
That is a common argument with people of today, and I propose to you that's exactly one of the reasons why it's so hard to find qualified people. If you think you can turn out work running from one end of the tolerance to the other and become a fine machinist in the process, you've missed something, somewhere.
Mind you, I'm not here to tell you how to work, nor how to formulate your work ethic------but one thing I can and will tell you is if you turn out every job using hack processes, you'll never be a decent machinist. When challenged to do the type of work I mentioned, you'll be at a loss, and will have success mainly from good fortune, if at all. That isn't at all how I worked----and would have proven to be my downfall had I.
The time you spend learning how to work closely is the time needed to hone skills that are required to do so. Those that don't spend the time will generally suffer when it comes time to do fine work. My years in the shop have proven that to me beyond any doubt. We, here in America, are sucking a hind tit these days because the bar has been lowered to the point where pride in one's workmanship has become secondary to making that fast buck. Even management has encouraged the concept, and has paid dearly as a result. The vast majority of work that left our shores in the 70's (auto production, for example) was driven far more by piss poor quality than anything else I can imagine. Couple that with unearned wages, and we were doomed to the hard times we endured. Funny thing is, it appear a lesson that we don't learn well. Just recently I heard a Ford commercial in which they were extolling the virtues of improved quality. What the hell happened to the improved quality they discussed when they started losing business back in the late 70's, and early 80's, when they bragged of improving? It appears we're long on lip service and damned short on service..
They were exactly as you described-----common industrial rated machines, everything but my Bridgeport, that is. A Bridgeport is one of the most over rated machines I've ever encountered. It lacks the quality of what I would consider acceptable machines, but they offered something that none of the others did----a very flexible machine that was affordable. I paid less than $3,000 for my first BP, new, including a vise and collets. My second one, purchased in the mid 70's, cost more, about $7,000 as I recall. When I purchased my first mill, a new EE Monarch could be purchased for $10,000 (1967). Had I had the resources, that's exactly what I would have purchased in place of my Sag 12 Graziano, which cost about $4,600, with a 2 speed motor. Base price was less------about $4,100. I had to make a request for the two speed, which was not offered in their literature.
Yes-----I agree. By contrast, none of my work, sans one optical gauge, was done on anything but my Graziano or BP. I rented time on a P&W jig borer for one component for the optical gauge, which was very difficult to machine because of the tolerance involved.
That's been my point right along. I've never suggested they shouldn't be used-----but I do suggest they not be used as a dodge for experience. Not if a person desires to become proficient at machining. You might look at this in the same way that an apprentice used to start out sweeping floors, and worked his way up the ladder. If you don't learn to use dials, a big part of necessary experience is circumvented. Not saying a person can't achieve results, not at all-----but I am saying the said person will be lacking in areas that will create shortcomings in their output.
Again, no argument-----but even my tired 68 year old eyes can still work tenths on a dial that is hard to read with good eyes. It's more about being a machinist than having the latest and best cheat devices. A moron running an EE Monarch with a DRO will still be a moron, in other words.
I agree-------and it's something that you simply can't learn from reading. The skills necessary come from application of knowledge that comes from books, that I'll grant you, but just like you can't read a book and learn to play a piano, you can't read a book and learn to grind toolbits.
I've never failed in grinding a toolbit ---even difficult configurations---but then I told myself long ago that I can grind toolbits-----I never limited my skills by suggesting that I couldn't. It's all about attitude, and paying attention. Once you figure out the characteristics of a wheel, and understand when it's time to dress, the rest is nothing but repetition. I can teach anyone to grind a tool in minutes------although it may take a person a few weeks to gain the confidence I have------and I have plenty.
If you're interested in reading some of my ravings, a gentlemen compiled several threads and posted them as a single download. I've never read what was compiled----I'm on a dreadfully slow dialup------but if you'd like to peruse what I had to say, not only about grinding HSS, but grinders and wheels, here's a link for the download:
formatting link
Harold
Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos
I got the file down and printed it out.
The only thing negative, that I have to say about it, is that it, when viewed from the perspective of a rank novice, would serve tidily as a deterrent to ever going near a metalworking tool. It does make it seem like everything must be "just so" or you will not have any success at all.
Great info for an advanced beginner or at least a somewhat more experienced metalworker, though. Very well written, and you are able to communicate the ideas you are presenting in a very clear manner. That is how it seemed to me, in any case.
Worth the read.
The tools that you show there are a bit different than those I use regularly. I use a lot of 3/16" and 1/4" HSS tools, either flat on top, or ground with a fair bit of top rake. I use a lot of small boring bars, ground very similarly to the one shown.
I can confess to doing most roughing operations with Carbide, as it is available and convenient, and when I must, I grind larger HSS tools, but for the most part, the work that requires the finer tolerances, is generally quite small, so small tool bits suffice.
I do try to get the apprentices thinking in terms of how they can get the most use out of a single set-up, and to think about minimizing tool changes and losses of zeros, and try to pound into them that the reason they have a quick change toolpost is to AVOID having to loosen it off to turn it about, and then having to pick up their zeros all over again.
Threatened to put the lantern tool post back on the lathe, for one guy, before he got that clue.
I make it sound like all the apprentices are a bunch of clueless thickies. Not all of them. I have several co-workers now, that came through in the last few years and showed aptitude and willingness to learn from their experiences, and the willingness to do good work, rather than the minimum possible.
Not allowed to beat the apprentices. Too bad. Some could use it.
Cheers Trevor Jones
Reply to
Trevor Jones
To be quite frank, I do not suffer fools gladly. Anyone with an aptitude can learn from what I had posted, and become very proficient at grinding tools. Yes---I fully expect them to pay attention to my words. I'm VERY good at grinding tools, even now.
Do the math. How many folks do you know that can grind decent tools? To convey the idea that all you have to do is stab a toolbit at a grinding wheel and it will cut is a disservice to anyone that desires to learn to grind them. Tools cut for known reasons, so you must conform to the guidelines involved, otherwise you're not going to experience the outcome you may desire. A rank novice shouldn't be deceived into thinking there's nothing to it, for that's not true. The big difference is, what I describe isn't beyond the ability of anyone that has enough sense to come in out of the rain, and has the ability to follow simple instructions. The rest is no different from learning to play a musical instrument----practice until you have it down.
Thanks for the kind words.
One of my biggest fears when I first started posting was that I would be unable to convey my message in such a way that it was meaningful. I have no education beyond high school, and was a miserable student with a C average in English. I was never known for my writing prowess and considered that I may not be able to put two words together. English was one of the classes that provided a generous portion of my sleeping hours, I'm not proud to say.
I have had others comment that I appear to be able provide useful information, but it's always nice to hear it from those that are experienced.
Size isn't a factor, as you likely understand. The principles remain the same. Get the theory down, then practice grinding until it makes sense and you achieve the desired results.
Abandoning a grinding rest (for grinding HSS) is one of the best things a guy can do, but it requires a complete different mindset in order to be successful. It's not an easy transition, but well worth the effort. OSHA is likely to take a dim view. They have no authority over the home shop, however.
I also used my share of carbide, often because it would move metal at a faster rate------but guys with small lathes, fractional HP motors, especially low speed, should be discouraged at every turn from emulating that process. It's a total waste of time, expensive in the scheme of things, but, worst of all, it deprives a person from learning to grind good and useful tools-----which will hold a person captive until rectified.
Nothing turns me off quicker than to encounter a damned yokel that proclaims himself a "machinist", yet he/she can't grind the simplest of tools. Sort of like a guy with a buzz box in his garage, proudly proclaiming to the world the he's a "welder". I've know weldors, most of whom are certified. You can believe me when I tell you, a guy that can't grind toolbits is to a machinist what a guy with a buzz box in his garage is to a weldor.
You are witnessing, in my opinion, the end product of children having been raised by parents that have never had to pay a price for anything in their life. Everything has been handed to these folks, so they don't equate effort with reward. It's not just in your shop-----it's everywhere. Many of the workers of today have absolutely no pride in what they do------but a burning desire to make a ton of money. That idea does NOT a machinist make. It's safe to say that many of these guys haven't yet learned that you have to work---and apply yourself. They will----it's just a matter of time. Some will drop out. We see them living under bridges. A select few will make you proud. I know. My mentor showcased me regularly. Upper management wanted to fire me because I was like those you complain about. One day it all changed, thanks to that wonderful man, Jay Dobson, how deceased. I owe him everything I became.
Few have the innate ability to make a good machinist. I witnessed that when I was in training. It was obvious that some of the guys that got involved were not suited. One guy, in particular, was the son of a machinist, so he followed in his father's footsteps. He could have stayed in the shop for his lifetime and wouldn't have been worth hiring. It simply wasn't his cup of tea. By sharp contrast, many of those that were my peers went on to become fine machinists, with a disproportionate number of them eventually starting their own shops. All but one that I can recall were successful.
I'll repeat another example I mentioned recently. One of the trainees was obviously not happy in the shop. He quit and became an embalmer/undertaker. While I never talked to him after he left training, his cousin, who was one of the QC personnel, told me that he was well pleased with his new career. As I said, not everyone is cut out to be a machinist.
Management as well. I had one foreman that I'd have slapped senseless given the opportunity. He, single handedly, threw more cold water on me and my ability than any other individual I ever encountered. He was clearly intimidated by anyone with skill and talent, likely fearing for his job. He displayed his contempt for me regularly by passing me over for overtime work, yet inviting others, many of which were far less productive. I solved that riddle my leaving the job, which wasn't much of one, anyway. Good people seek their level. It became obvious to me that running my own business was the level that was appropriate.
Turns out, it was. :-)
Harold
Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

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