OT: A real libertarian speaks

All this talk about Gunner's philosophical predicament and libertarian philosophy (and I don't know what Gunner has actually said about it, because I've plonked him, but it doesn't matter, we're really talking about the situation, not about him) has led me to finish a little book I started reading a couple of years ago, where I found this interesting thought.

The book is _What It Means To Be A Libertarian_, by Charles Murray, former Harvard prof, current American Enterprise Institute Fellow, co-author of _The Bell Curve_, and an all-around anti-socialist, pro-liberty guy. My apologies to Mr. Murray for this lengthy quote, which pushes the definition of "fair use," but I'll compensate by recommending the book highly and will further say that anyone who thinks himself a libertarian, or a Libertarian, and who hasn't read this brief book, probably doesn't know what he's talking about:

"The first step for libertarians is to acknowledge, freely and without reservation, the nobility of the goal [ending poverty]. It is distressing when want exists amid plenty, and humans have a moral obligation to do what they can. Or as one wise man put it, "He is certainly not a good citizen who does not wish to promote, by every means in his power, the welfare of the whole society of his fellow citizens." That is Adam Smith talking, the apostle of laissez-faire. This injunction applies not merely to poverty but to all the human predicaments that arise from the randomness of life and lead us to say, "There but for the grace of God go I" To some extent life is indeed a lottery, just as the social democrats insist.

"That chance plays a large role in life is not news, but it needs to be emphasized because the political debate has tended to push libertarians into unnecessarily extreme positions. The idea that we are our brothers' keepers has been used so flabbily, for so many destructive schemes, that one has a strong impulse to say, "The hell I am." But the Bible cannot be held responsible for its misuse by twentieth-century politicians, and the whining of some social democrats that no one is responsible for his fate should not provoke libertarians into saying that anyone can stand on his own two feet if he has a little gumption. We all need a little help from our friends, and some of us need a great deal. What becomes of those who are helpless, or luckless, or perhaps simply feckless, must deeply concern any human being worthy of the name. So say all of the world's great religious traditions. So say the great thinkers in the classical liberal tradition. So say most of their followers, including me."

Now, Mr. Murray follows with this line:

"Should government be the instrument for discharging this obligation?"

...to which the answer is, of course, no. But the point above is the relevant one. Murray identifies himself as a Classical Liberal, which is slightly different from a libertarian in important ways, but he, like Milton Friedman, finds it more accurate to call himself a "libertarian" because of what "liberal" now implies.

This should be pasted on the wall of those fat, rich geeks, like Tim May, who came by their wealth too fast, without the acquired sense of what it means to be wealthy in a democratic society, and who are, with money in their pockets and no idea what noblesse oblige means, paranoid that everyone is trying to take it away from them. If he lived in the Northeast instead of California, he might have a better sense of what "rich white trash" means, and how accurately it applies to him.

Chew on that one.

Reply to
Ed Huntress
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C'mon, don't blame California for that jerk. He's a carpetbagger. He came to Santa Cruz from somewhere else. I wish he and his ilk had stayed wherever the f*ck they were, but they didn't. They came to California and ruined it.

I wish they were all dead.

Reply to
hamei

They came to California because it is a good place to get rich quick, if all of the planets happen to align in your direction, as they did for Tim.

People who get rich quick, and who live among other people who got rich quick, tend to be very screwed up, socially and otherwise. It's a culture in which California has a rich heritage.

If you live in Princeton or Georgetown or Boston's North Shore or Philadelphia's Main Line, and if you've gotten rich quick, you're surrounded by old money. "Old money" in the US means at least three generation's worth, which would be nouveau-riche in the UK. But it's old enough to absorb the culture.

You can't get too far off the reservation or you'll find out that you can't get into the clubs, the parties, or the schools that brought you there in the first place. You have a lot of rich-person's responsibilities along with the prerogatives. There's a *way* of being old-rich, or of living among the old-rich, and it's quite a straightjacket. Everybody in town knows, for example, just how much you contributed to the United Way and to the local philharmonic, and it damned well better fall within a narrow range that's appropriate to your wealth and your social station: too little and you're a buffoonish parvenu; too much, and you're a pretentious climber.

And then, it's off to California for *you*, Bubba. d8-)

Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Libertarian,

Reply to
John&Michelle

Well, it is a compliment. I come from a long line of New Hampshirites myself, hard-boiled live-free-or-die'rs, and they're just about what Murray talks about in his book. They're hard as the granite their fields are made of but they have a strong sense of responsibility to their neighbors.

As for the rich white trash, you've really got to see a whole gaggle of the nouveau riche in action to appreciate it. From what Santa Cruz Mike tells me, his area is loaded with them, and it's a particularly virulent strain, which includes a lot of dot-commers.

Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

If you haqve plonked him, and it doesn't matter, then why even bring it up? Can't we just talk about tools, machines, metal, sex and other wonderful things and forget this other stuff?

Vaughn

Reply to
Vaughn Simon

Sure you can. This is a libertarian newsgroup. Talk about anything you want!

But I've written over 300 articles and several book chapters about tools, machines, and metal (nothing about sex, although it's not a bad idea...), and I was a manager of two different machine tool companies. I'm burned out, and there aren't enough new and changing things going on there to make it interesting. I'd like to talk to other metalheads about something else for a change. Ok?

That is, until somebody says "billet," which makes me go ballistic.

Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Hamei, Ed,

You guys really hit the nail on the head here...it's folks like that really drag the Valley down, IMHO. "Born on third base, but thought he hit a triple..."

Yuck........

~Brian

C'mon, don't blame California for that jerk. He's a carpetbagger. He came to Santa Cruz from somewhere else. I wish he and his ilk had stayed wherever the f*ck they were, but they didn't. They came to California and ruined it.

I wish they were all dead.

Reply to
Nom de Plume

Well - how about navigating our way through some rhetorical bouys here, by (perhaps in another thread) the noblesse' oblige exhibited by Paul Allen's (and ultimately, many others- you gotta try what don't work, too!) funding of the first civilian space flight?

Reply to
John&Michelle

|| ||People who get rich quick, and who live among other people who got rich ||quick, tend to be very screwed up, socially and otherwise. It's a culture in ||which California has a rich heritage. || ||If you live in Princeton or Georgetown or Boston's North Shore or ||Philadelphia's Main Line, and if you've gotten rich quick, you're surrounded ||by old money. "Old money" in the US means at least three generation's worth, ||which would be nouveau-riche in the UK. But it's old enough to absorb the ||culture. || ||You can't get too far off the reservation or you'll find out that you can't ||get into the clubs, the parties, or the schools that brought you there in ||the first place. You have a lot of rich-person's responsibilities along with ||the prerogatives. There's a *way* of being old-rich, or of living among the ||old-rich, and it's quite a straightjacket. Everybody in town knows, for ||example, just how much you contributed to the United Way and to the local ||philharmonic, and it damned well better fall within a narrow range that's ||appropriate to your wealth and your social station: too little and you're a ||buffoonish parvenu; too much, and you're a pretentious climber.

I'd be willing to make those adjustments to my lifestyle. Where do I apply? Texas Parts Guy

Reply to
Rex B

And that is it in a nutshell I think.

First off those folks are getting fewer and farther between as time goes on.

Their replacements do not understand what can happen, and what that means to ordinary folks - the good people you mention above.

So you get a bunch of 'mine for me, nothin' else for nobody!' types. The same ones who equate personal wealth with personal virtue. At some point those virtuous folks may experience poverty first-hand and then are quite very likely to change their squawky tune.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Reply to
jim rozen

Sun, 12 Oct 2003 01:49:49 GMT, Gunner

Yup. And then there are many of them like me, whom have said SOME welfare is necessary, when there is a catastrophic problem that needs help. In fact, Ive been castigated for my stand on it.

On the other hand, Ive also said that multigenerational welfare families should be stopped. And we did just that in California not all that long ago, as you so well know, with Welfare Reform.

The days of mommas spitting out babies to get more welfare money per kid is over and done, and there are now caps on the lenght of time they can be on it. Works for me. That money is better spent taking care of people whom have NO other options, the ill, the sick and the dispossessed, not the lazy bastards whom now have to get off their asses and actual go take care of business.

********************************* 18 Sep 2002 13:22:27 GMT

Ill give the group a startling comment.

I believe in Some forms of welfare.

While I would much rather such be performed by charity, there is a Need for some form of general assistance. A return to Dickensonian England with debtors prison, child labor etc is not where Id like to see the greatest nation on earth go. That being said, there are a large number of people on welfare that perhaps should not be. Believe it or not, California has really tightened the screws onits welfare system, and its gotten really tough. I have seen way too many people whom through no fault of their own, have come up against serious problems, and ultimately have no other recourse. Nada. However again..as a good libertarian, I dont thing payments into the system should be forced either. Some form of voluntary donation, portions of a lottery ticket etc would serve as a good cash flow device. Tax deductions for charitable spending to big corporations?

There has to be some way for a nation as great as ours, to be able to help the TRUELY needy in our society get a hand up (not a hand out!)

A case in point and close to home for me. My ex wife had three heart attacks and ultimately required open heart surgery. No lifestyle causes, simply family genetics. The county paid her medical bills in full. Probably $200,000. Neither she nor I could even afford health insurance in the first place. Up to that point in time, she had been a productive member of society, taxpayer etc as have I. What options were there other than a funeral? None. That was a form of welfare. Should she be killed as a drone? Others here on this newsgroup have long term medical issues that are covered by the "state". Should they be killed? Should they be forced to crawl under the porch and die?

Its not quite as simple as you would make it out to be. Though, I do agree there are still serious problems in the system that need to be addressed and fixed. I get seriously pissed when I go to the grocery store, see a young healthy woman with about 4 kids paying for groceries with WIC coupons (food stamps) then tote everything out to a new SUV owned by her live in boyfriend. LOTS of fraud and misuse of the system, but fix the system, dont destroy the only chance a lot of people have to live as normal a life as possible. The truely needy ones, not the cheaters.

Gunner, who has been working and paying taxes since the age of 15, and not a person whom could be considered a statist...chuckle..or a bleeding heart. And one who HAS bled for his country.

**********************

Google is your friend.

Gunner

That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. - George Orwell

Reply to
Gunner

I did read your entire well-thought out post - and snipped a bunch to zero in on what I considered a bit of an inconsistency.

You say you hate paying taxes. Yet you were the recipient of the same payments in the past. Would you go so far as to reduce your tax bill by ending the free public eductation - that you yourself took advantage of?

Your tax bill is padded by entitlement programs like social security and medicare. If you had the chance, would you end those as well?

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

Reply to
jim rozen

Harvard is a good place to start. Apply to Yale and Princeton, while you're at it. Be sure to make lots of good friends there among the children of the rich and famous, and learn to be the life of the party.

Then, hop on that train and ride off to financial heaven...

Ed Huntress

Reply to
Ed Huntress

Pot? Kettle? Hello?

R, Tom Q.

Remove bogusinfo to reply.

Reply to
Tom Quackenbush

I made my point--and anyways, we're sorta buddies....

So now, he owes ME one !!!

Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT

I didn't want to point this out though, the length of the original message was the message...not the message itself. To snip the length woild defeat my point.

Then.. this message is crossposted so alll you people at rcm don't know about Kirk's amazing machine.

John

Reply to
john

In any context that was great. I wish I could get stuff like that down and fast. I didn't get Ed's post , I've only been described as one. I could really care less what category I'm in.

I had it all and had it taken away. The law directed me like a parent. Never even thought about asking people for $ like they do to me everyday. I shouldn't delete posts after I'm done with them. I was going to jump on someone and just let it go. The thing is , is that what I have to say is always against something really powerful and what's the use... To give real examples of some holes in what you wrote would just endanger me even though most of it was good.

I was always good in math and should have insisted on presueing it and then dumped the idea cause I didn't need anymore education. Then it was walking highways with nowhere to go like someone dropped of from ellis island. Its a rough world out there.

For a good decade of my life I jet setted 2 to 4 thousand miles a year and saw all kinds of indigent people that need help. I was training a mex. once and he asked me why I'm a lowly construction worker and I tried to explain that my family was wiped out. Kinda like that time I was in a border town and everyone in the group shuffled through the protest of the deflation of the paso with coins and flour in the town square.

Don't get me on having to be practically dying to get any medical help. How long did it take for chicks to get ahhh ahhh ahhh yeast infection meds over the counter ? !

Reply to
Sunworshiper

Figures you'd say that....

Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT

Thats what has me worried--the suspense is gonna be a killer....

Reply to
PrecisionMachinisT

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