# OT disgusted with all presidential candidates

wrote:

This is just Ohio:
"Although there are no federal numbers on where employed SNAP participants work, the state of Ohio, where Ballam lives, does keep a list of the top 50 companies with the most workers and their family
supermarket, Dollar General. At the very top is Walmart, which had an average of more than 14,500 workers and family members on food stamps last year.* If you take into account the average size of a family on food stamps, as many as 7,000 individual Walmart employees were on
across Ohio.
"That means the same company that brings in the most food stamp
the most employees using food stamps.
It's a company store, financed by taxpayers. They're smart dudes!

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On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 9:37:16 PM UTC-4, Steve W. wrote:

I doubt that one will work because what kind of peppers would be used (cook ed or raw) and when? A taco out of a vending machine? That would almost b e like a miniature chef's salad out of a vending machine. I'd say that's a losing effort.

I'd say yes, because that would mean a ENCLOSED pizza display case.
(As opposed to the chefs joking, yacking and talking with their bad breath at each other all over an open display of pizza slices). That's why I pref er large chain store pizza places like Little Caesars and Pizza Hut, becaus e right out of the oven, the pizza goes STRAIGHT into the box or on the ser ving table.
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 19:21:45 -0400, Ed Huntress

But, I suspect that labour costs do have an influence on how quickly robots will be added to the work force. If the robot is, say a half a million dollars, and labour is \$1.10 an hour then management looks at the robot as something to be added in the future 1 robot5 years of labour. If labour is \$15.00 an hour than the utilization of a robotic work force becomes a much more important factor. 1 robot = 11.4 years.
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cheers,

John B.
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wrote:

But it just doesn't work that way in practice, John. Over the years I've done dozens of stories on robots and other automation, visiting and interviewing the managers who actually are doing it. The usual scenario, in manufacturing, involves making a big operational change, usually to expand capacity or to get more production out of existing resources. That simple wages vs. investment calculation that many people think is the determinant is not it. It is so trivial, compared to the total costs and operational disruptions involved, that it hardly gets a nod.
Further, implementing robots usually doesn't involve laying people off. Most often, the influence on employment is about people who are *not hired*, sometime in the future. It has a strong effect over time, but it's not a straight, immediate substitution.
In services, automation is implemented mostly through IT, not through mechanical hardware. That's a different scenario and I don't have much direct experience with it.
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Ed Huntress

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On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 10:11:44 -0400, Ed Huntress

But I didn't say that labour cost was what drives the change over merely that labour cost may well influence it. And I think that I am probably correct that cost is a large factor that is taken into consideration.
Some years ago I did some research on materials moving (conveyer belts mostly) methods here in Thailand and in the process came across some companies that were making "robots" for some of the car plants here. Labour costs would have been in the 100 - 150 baht/day range then and in every case the robots" were designed to do a single job more consistently than doing it by hand. One I remember was a robot to weld the axle tubes into a differential housing. It was faster than a human but, according to the robot maker, the importance was that it didn't make any bad welds :-)

Again, I didn't say that. However, unless the U.S. is different from the rest of the world, the cost of making the product is a very important factor in whether the company is viable, or not, and almost without exception labour costs are the first item looked at when a company is feeling a money crunch.

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cheers,

John B.
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wrote:

First, yes, quality is a major reason for automating in advanced manufacturing countries. Speaking just of manufacturing, it's far ahead of direct-labor savings.
In the US, as in the rest of the developed world, direct labor is roughly 10% of the cost of producing a car. It's been that way for decades. It was 12% when I started in this business, in the mid-'70s.
So direct labor savings is not a big issue. Any single step of automating can save only a trivial amount of direct labor. The big motivations are quality, squeezing more out of existing resources (such as eliminating a branched assembly line, with spot-welders), expanding without the need for a third shift (always expensive and defect-prone with humans), avoiding outsourcing, avoiing hiring additional people, and so on. Direct labor savings in *existing production* is 'way down the list.
It gets complicated these days because most of the part-making and subassembly is pushed down to the Tiers of the supply chain. But the same motivators apply there, as well as at the OEMs.
These facts are widely misunderstood.
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Ed Huntress

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On Sun, 07 Jun 2015 21:32:47 -0400, Ed Huntress

Yes. I went to an auto exposition, or some such name, in Bangkok a few years ago and discovered that there are Thai companies that are making such things as complete front suspension modules for export. apparently to "foreign" car makers.
Re labour costs.
Direct labor costs in manufacturing, may well be 10% of total cost but that is only one side of the coin.
What is the labour cost factor in running a Macdonald's? Or a factory making shirts. Or an airline? Recently Thai International, who have been a drag on the government for years, got called on the carpet by the new government. Apparently told that they had to start pulling their own weight the first thing that they did was announce that there would be a reduction in manpower. 5,000 job cuts.
Malaysian Airline who have apparently been factually bankrupt for years now and supported by government "loans" have seemingly been kicked out of the nest and now have to fly by themselves,. They have hired some hot-shot European Manager to save them and the first move.... cut personnel. "the carrier slashed 6,000 jobs as part of plans to recover from deadly disasters and a long run of red ink".

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cheers,

John B.
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wrote:

17% corporate; 24% overall for company-owned plus franchised stores. It's the 24% that you're thinking about. Technically, that's on sales, not costs, but since their profit is only around 3.5% of sales, it's almost the same number.

You'll have to check with Bangladesh. <g>

You'll have to look that one up.

Airlines are not a good example. Their costs vary all over the map. Subsidized ones, like your example, are complex to unravel, because subsidies can be hidden all over the place.

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On Mon, 08 Jun 2015 14:13:37 -0400, Ed Huntress

But, my point is/was that although labour may only be 10% of the cost of manufactured goods, it is radically different in other businesses. My wife's girlfriend started a "shirt factory" that essentially sewed pre-cut pieces of cloth together to make a shirt. 25 second hand sewing machines was the initial investment and then the salaries of the 25 girls that did the work, which was, on a shirt by shirt basis a variable. She later changed that to a fixed cost by putting the sewing girls" on a fixed rate of so much a finished shirt. (which the girls seemed to prefer also).
In addition the first cost item that companies always seem to look at in a financial or business downturn seem to be "Labour".
I might add, that I was the company "hatchet man" on my last position. When there was a downturn in the oil business and contract weren't being issued, I got called in and told to "look at costs".
Now, I freely admit to being something of a "rabble rouser" and I used to start my list of excessive costs with the daily DHL delivery from our Singapore office to the home office in Jakarta. No longer needed for project support but still bringing the copies of the British "Football News" that our Controller read and the Christies catalogs that one of the owners enjoyed. Oh yes, and the first class air tickets used by senior management on the 50 minute flights to Singapore, and of course the air freight back for the goodies that they bought there - one of the owners used to buy breakfast cereal in Singapore and have the company ship it to Jakarta as it was "cheaper in Singapore".
Strange as it might seem these items were generally overlooked and the fact that we "have four office boys" was usually the first item that was discussed - for a two story office with probably 50 employees. "Do we Really need that many?" :-)

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cheers,

John B.
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Ignoramus26399 wrote:

And very precisely , every burger exactly 1.456 miuntes per side .
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Snag

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The robot also does not complain, and does not need health insurance.
i
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:01:08 -0500, Ignoramus26399

...doesn't need hair nets or toilet paper/seat covers, always shows up for work on time, never takes breaks, is always polite to the customer (if audible version), and probably sounds better over the cheap speakers than disaffected minorities.
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Worry is a misuse of imagination.
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 20:01:08 -0500, Ignoramus26399

And robots don't pay taxes either....
About 46% of the U.S. National Revenue comes from personal income tax while 32% comes from payroll tax, or in other words, some 78% of the taxes are generated by folks who work. https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/revenues/
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cheers,

John B.
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[...]

Robotic "health care" is a deductible business expense: Maintenance. "Turnover" would be "Depreciation"? <grin>
As for complaining, voice synthesis is already out there, so it's just a matter of time before the the AI level of some of those robots gets them noticed by the ACLU and PETA. First it'll be a 50msec "coffee break", then "free networking with the local ATMs"...
Frank McKenney
--
Advice to the novice scientist: There is no fixed way to make and
establish a scientific discovery. Throw everything you can at the
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On Sat, 06 Jun 2015 18:01:17 -0500, Ignoramus26399

Pay scale is not a factor in deciding which jobs will be done by a computer. A computer is a perfect slave. Feed it the required amount of boring food (electricity) and it will work 24 / 7 until it dies. The computer never wants time off to be with it's family. If your job can be done by a computer then it will be done by a computer.
Does anybody remember a good paying job called "typesetting" that was done at a place called a "newspaper"? There are still a few newspapers around but they will all disappear in due time.
I remember draftsmen who were very good at drawing blueprints with pen, ink, and paper. Is there a school left in the country that teaches making blueprints that way?
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Larry Jaques wrote:

Man, does Iggy have the right appellation or what.

There are different kinds of intelligence.

Perot was a peudo-intellectual with no real grasp of our roots as the founders designed them. He got a big reaction out of the audience by pointing out that Social Security money is combined with the general treasury. "If a business did that the CEO would go to jail." And the audience gasped, because the fools didn't know it had been that way since 1968. But Perot just took cheap shots at Republicans and didn't mention that it was Democrats who did that in 1968. And he had no grasp of the fact that Republicans were right to argue that SS was unconstitutional in the first place. If it was constitutional then what they did in 1968 would have been unconstitutional.
Without Perot, we wouldn't have had Clinton. During the next four years he would have gone where his successor Jim Guy Tucker went - jail. Then today, nobody would know the name Clinton. Thank you Ross Perot.
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On Sun, 7 Jun 2015 13:45:38 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"

Alexander Hamilton won the argument. James Madison lost.

No, there was no relationship. FDR wanted to keep them separate, but once the Court decided, in 1937, that SS fell within the taxing powers and that SS and unemployment insurance fell within the "general welfare," it was up to the Congress to decide (including in 1968) what to do with the taxes collected.

An old chestnut and an apology by Republicans. It's probably not true. Here's the best analysis you're likely to find:
http://www.pollingreport.com/hibbitts1202.htm

Nonsense.
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Ed Huntress

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On 6/5/2015 7:21 PM, Ignoramus6359 wrote:

I'm puzzled that you think the current POTUS is any different from the current candidates.

I feel the next POTUS has already been selected and the election is another Potemkin election.
David
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He may be a decent, personable man but he hasn't become the strong, persuasive, decisive and effective leader a large nation so entwined in global affairs needs. It's sad for us that Putin is a better example of one. A leader has to be absolutely cocksure-confident in order to make decisions that will unavoidably hurt some people, without knowing all the facts. Otherwise you have Jimmy Carter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis
http://www.warpedfactor.com/2014/12/star-trek-looking-back-at-enemy-within.html "As act 2 gets underway good Kirk is growing weak and losing the ability to lead, and we enter into a great exploration of humanity: man's duality of nature. Kirk is split between yin and yang, masculine and feminine, base and nobility, and he finds that neither side can function without the other. A bold move for a 1966 television series to openly acknowledged that hostility, lust, and violent nature are essential qualities in a leader."
If Kerensky had made better decisions Russia wouldn't have fallen to Lenin and his Bolsheviks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kerensky "The dilemma of whether to withdraw [from WW1] was a great one, and Kerensky's inconsistent and impractical policies further destabilised the army and the country at large.
Obama's "line in the sand" turned out to be a trail of urine marking our retreat. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9403672/barack-obama-anatomy-of-a-failure/ http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/how-barack-obama-s-presidency-has-come-undone-1.2839575
George Patton's and Erwin Rommel's books are interesting insights into the supremely self-confident personality of effective leaders. I wouldn't want either of them as a neighbor, or President. General James Gavin, postwar US commander in divided Berlin, wrote that he was the only person Marshall Zhukov got along well with, because all the other Russians feared he'd have them shot.
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/48980 Grant later became a notably ineffectual President.
-jsw
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On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 8:57:55 AM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

Good post and an accurate representation of the current situation Wilkins.
Thanks.