OT:long chat an NE

I had a four hour car ride today with a fellow engineer. His specialty was running nuclear power plants and has years experience with the exact design run in Japan.

Way too much for me to repeat here, but a few keys points really enlightened me.

First, today's plants are using a hotter uranium core than the plants were originally built for. This is for producing more power. A lot of upgrades have occurred to handle this. Not all upgrades have been installed in every plant.

Second, the original design called for 6 months down time for a uranium core change. A lot of this time was to cool the core coming out. Today the core change is being done in one month. that's to get the plant back up and running and not lose the millions per day in down time. This means the core come out of containment and goes to the spent pool far hotter.

Again a number of design improvements were made to handle the hotter material. And at least some improvements certainly haven't been done in Japan. he knew exactly what was missing with the first explosion and had installed design improvements for a spent core overheat in the plants he ran. He also knew the biggest danger is in a spent core overheat.

He was also involved in an emergency cooling system improvement. This would allow the fire department to pull up to a tap on the outside of the plant and hook up high pressure water. The water pressure would trip all the necessary valves and cool the whole plant with no one going inside. In other words the fire department could shut it down. It sounds like this was real expensive and hasn't been done in most plants, certainly not in Japan.

Lot more, but I learned more about power plants today than I thought possible.

Karl

Reply to
Karl Townsend
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Did he happen to mention any of the materials that will poison the reaction?

Boric acid, sodium polyborate, gadolinium nitrate

I believe the Japanese are already trying boric acid on a small scale.

Haven't heard if it's working or not...

Reply to
CaveLamb

Shoot, i didn't think to ask about that.

karl

Reply to
Karl Townsend

If you recall something else, let us know, it is very interesting.

i
Reply to
Ignoramus23509

Shortly after TMI, I met an acquaintance's boy friend, who sounded like he really knew what he was talking about. He described about a half-dozen things they'd done wrong; most noticeably dropping the cooling water on top of the hot core; what they should have done was feed it up from the bottom. This would have dissipated the heat a lot quicker. It seems that when you drop water from the top, it boils before it even touches the core, and from the bottom, that boiling takes away MONGO heat, primarily by dissocating the water carrying the heat outside where the hydrogen burns and dissipates the heat in the form of flame.

I think a major part of the problem is too many bureaucrats in the design loop, much like Obamacare is threatening to do to the medical industry.

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

No need to poison the reactor, the fission stopped when the control rods were automatically dropped by the seismic detectors. The problem is the residual heat inside the core, and the decay of short lived daughters.

I do understand that the geometry and composition of the bottom of the vessel does include poisons, and spreads the melted core to help with cooling if the core actually melts and falls out.

Reply to
Stuart Wheaton

Zing!

Reply to
Tom Gardner

Agreed those worthless paper pushers drive up the cost of everything without adding a cent's worth of value.

Wolfgang

Reply to
wolfgang

If it's so great, howcome the Hussein is handing out all those waivers to his union masters?

Thanks, Rich

Reply to
Rich Grise

Well, this reactor site was a complete disaster before they even started to build it! Japan has known about tsunamis for hundreds, more likely thousands of years. Why the HELL did they build the entire reactor facility at sea level? Obviously, it is real easy to get big, heavy stuff in and out of there by barge or ship, but it exposes the whole facility to tsunami danger.

The Chernobyl accident (whew - more like hyper-catastrophe!) was caused by unwise experiments with the turbine to try to paper over a one-minute lack of power until the Diesel engines can get up to speed. Also, some REALLY STUPID engineering of that type of plant (RBMK-1000) makes it very unstable and prone to wild positive excursions of power.

That should have been a REAL wake-up call to the extremely critical nature of emergency backup power for the cooling pumps, and replacement Diesels could have been built up a hill from the rest of the plant, as moving the whole plant would be impossible. But, no, they hadn't had an accident in

40 years, why worry about it now?

So, really, the cost-cutting was done 40 years ago when the plant was built, and they were saddled with most of what was totally impossible to change after the fact. They could have done something about making a more survivable backup power system, though. That might have only cost a few million $.

Jon

Reply to
Jon Elson

Quite true, prices and profits for health care providers are going up!

Reply to
Randy333

Well they did something so that Medicare Advantage is no longer offered by my former employer. So that jacked up my insurance cost by a couple hundred a month for me and another couple hundred for my wife.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

On Apr 1, 9:39=A0pm, Too_Many_Tools

Not free, but subsidized

They did not drop medical care to retirees. But did drop the Medicare Advantage which was less expensive for decent coverage.

Medicare Advantage plans are being dropped all over the country because of changes in reimbursement because of Obamacare .

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Why the bit about short time? You said the problems existed ever since the power plants were built.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Just from a quick Google chek. The changes Congress made (funding cut) in Medicare Advantage plans was passed in 2008 before OBama was elected.

-jim

Reply to
jim

jim"

Reply to
John R. Carroll

Gunner Asch on Fri, 01 Apr 2011 23:31:47 -0700 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

Those don't have to worry about tsunamis.

Reply to
pyotr filipivich

From wikipedia

Dan

Although the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act of 2010 does not eliminate Medicare Advantage, it does do away with the subsidies which the federal government first used to establish the Medicare Advantage program and which many Medicare Advantage health insurance plans use to offer supplemental benefits. These subsidies (which added an additional $14 billion to the Medicare program last year alone) will gradually be reduced until they are eliminated altogether. In

2011, these Medicare Advantage subsidy payments will be frozen at 2010 levels. After that, Medicare Advantage subsidy payments will be reduced an average of 12% per year until they are brought in line with traditional Medicare payments.[5]
Reply to
dcaster

Not what I meant.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

Except he was not trotting out the facts that apply .

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

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