Phase converter puzzle!

I built a self starting phase converter with a 10 HP idler and two 92
mF capacitors. It works great and starts in under 2 seconds.
I also have a very similar looking Century 7.5HP motor. They 10 HP and
7.5 HP look similar.
This 7.5 HP motor would NOT spin up from two other capacitors. If I
wire it with three capacitors (I have 5 total, 2 already used in the
main phase converter), it would spin up, but it takes it about 5
seconds to do so and it warms up appreciably. What gives?
Another tidbit is that the 7.5 HP motor starts just fine from 3 phase
output of my phase converter. I do not think that it is a bad
motor. Maybe some caps out of these three are in bad condition.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus9179
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The inductance of the winding is different. The motor works. Different caps than those used would work.
That is why the caps are approx and to adjust...
Remember, "we" are finding a way to get around the normal ways. Different motors don't have to have the same specs, just have the power and voltage ratings listed on the plate.
Martin
Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Larger, older-style motors operate at a lower flux density and need more capacitance per horsepower than modern TEFC motors. But you say the motors are similar in design?
From my experience an unloaded motor will spin up with a wide range of capacitor values. I would expect a 7.5 hp motor to spin up with a single 92 uF capacitor.
In what arrangement are you connecting the capacitors? If you're connecting them in parallel, I reckon you most likely have two bad capacitors or a motor with a dodgy connection somewhere.
Best wishes,
Chris
Reply to
Christopher Tidy
What is the RPM of the idler which you are using, and the motor which you are *trying* to use? You may need a different capacitance for a different RPM motor.
Or -- you just may need more of them.
Enjoy, DoN.
Reply to
DoN. Nichols
Do you mean different, as in having different capacitance?
i
Reply to
Ignoramus9179
They look like twins, one is smaller than another but that's it. Same company, same look, and possibly same design.
That's what I would expect as well.
That makes perfect sense to me. I did check connections, though. Likely the caps are bad.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus9179
both my current 10 hp idler and 7.5 hp idler are 1750 or so rpm.
could be, but why can I get with 2 caps for my 10 HP RPC?
i
Reply to
Ignoramus9179
i
You might view this as a good time to experiment with a different method of spinning an idler. A "new in the box" electrolytic capacitor will cost about $15. That'll buy you a 250 mic capacitor that'll spin-up a good 7 1/2 HP idler in less than a second.
Jerry
Reply to
Jerry Martes
The minimum single phase starting capacitor value can vary a lot between OK motors of similar HP but different design. This is a parameter of pretty well zero significance in three phase motor design so there's no incentive to control or to reduce it.
Older motors using poorer performance iron tend to need rather more capacitance. Another factor is the initial bearing friction and, to a lesser extent, armature inertia. The heat input to the motor is disproportionately large at very low speeds - just an extra second at near stall can make a big difference.
There's probably nothing wrong with your 7.5 HP setup but if you're worried about the capacitors try the following test.
. Connect the capacitor in series with a high wattage lamp (100W or more) across 110v supply WITH CAPACITOR INITIALLY SHORTED OUT then remove the short.
No change in brightness or nil brightness - dud capacitor
Reduced brightness - functioning capacitor - compare the brightness with a ditto test on a similar value capacitor.
Jim
Reply to
pentagrid
I definitely like this suggestion. Experimenting with this stuff is fun. What method would you suggest for turning that capacitor off after the motor spins up?
i
Reply to
Ignoramus23305
You see, that's fine, but what puzzles me is that the motors are made by the same company, look extremely similar, like identical twins really, but one is slightly larger and one is slightly smaller.
Yep...
I will give that a shot, indeed.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus23305
I
My personal favorite method of spinning up an idler is to momentarily connect the capacitor from one of the 220 lines to the "unfed winding" using a solid state switch. The switches cost $12 at Marlin P, Jones. Any big relay can be used to momentarily connect the capacitor, There is a high degree of arcing associated with disconnecting the capacitor, so 'oversized' realys are desired.
Once the idler is spinning, and the tool motor is connected and loaded, there is very little benefit derived as result of having the tuning capacitor. It is my contention that "tuning" of the RPC is best left for the experts to do. I'd advise that any RPC should be "tuned" only after it is determined that there is a need.
Jerry
Reply to
Jerry Martes
Jerry sez: "> My personal favorite method of spinning up an idler is to momentarily
Do these solid state switches operate at "zero crossing" time? I am guessing they are similar to those used in high $ "switched capacitor" rotary phase converters such as the Booster brand seen on Metal Web News.
Bob Swinney
Reply to
Robert Swinney
Yeah, Bob, the solid state relays do switch out the capacitor at zero crossing. That is what makes them so interesting. No arcs. In addition, the solid state relays can be controlled with 9 VDC. I use a small alkaline battery, so no high voltage is troublesome around the ON-OFF butons.
Jerry
Reply to
Jerry Martes
I am quite interested, do you know of a web address where I could see these switches?
thanks
i
Reply to
Ignoramus23305
Iggy sez: "I am quite interested, do you know of a web address where I could see
How about it, Jerry? Is there a web site that you know of? What are some of the exact specs; and are they available from some of the chip houses, National, maybe?
Bob Swinney
Reply to
Robert Swinney
The caps are trying to counteract the winding inductance. So if the motor changes between models, companies, Years then the inductance is either the same, lower or higher. One in three you have to change the cap value.
It is the same for a larger or smaller motor. (also naturally)
Martin
Reply to
Martin H. Eastburn
Bob
I had already stocked up on the solid state switches at All Electronics while they had hundreds of "take outs" at about $2.00 each. I dont see any in the most recent All Electronics
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catalog. Marlin P. Jones
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shows some 25 amp, 280 VAC solid state switches at $11.95 each.
Jerry
Reply to
Jerry Martes
Thanx, Jerry! Hey, Iggy - take a look.
Bob Swinney
Reply to
Robert Swinney
Thanks, they are interesting. Using them would mean that I need to also add some DC power supply to the converter. Anyway, I will give it a serious thought. At this point, common sense suggests that the most likely cause of the trouble is bad caps.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus4384

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