Pinging Bruce for Clarification

Bruce (or anyone qualified).....
Three phase power ----- isn't each leg 120 degrees from the others?
Single phase power - 220v - isn't each leg 180 degrees from the other?
If the above is correct (and I'm hoping I understand it correctly) it
would stand to reason, that if you needed to hook up a 220v single
phase machine and you had 3 phase available at that location you
could, (and I am not saying it's correct) connect to two of the three
phases and run the machine, even tho the sine waves wouldn't be 180
out, it probably wouldn't hurt anything. Am I correct in this
assumption??? Any and all comments welcome
Thanks.
Ken.
Reply to
Ken Sterling
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yes
Single phase means there is one leg only. Think of single phase as line segment (one line) and three phase as a triangle (three lines).
Each leg is single phase.
Read wikipedia article on Three Phase Power, it is very good.
i
Reply to
Ignoramus7495
Three phase is usually 208/120. 208 volts between phases and 120 volts leg to ground. Many machines have a 200 volt tap for this situation.
Stuart
Reply to
Stuart Wheaton
If your three phase power is 220/230/240 volts phase-to-phase, which is common, you get normal 220/230/240 volts single phase between any two phases. So your machine will not only work, it will be connected to its proper power.
This topic generally starts a really long and involved thread, so stand by. There is quite a bit more that can be learned about the voltages, currents, and phase angles and there is some disagreement about the terminology involved.
Don Young
Reply to
Don Young
You question is really "can I run a 3 phase motor on single phase?" Answer is a qualified maybe: since you will be running only 2 of the 3 phases, you can only get 2/3rds of the rated power. Plus you will need to run some capacitors to pick up the 3rd leg to get it to start in the desired direction. This is the approach used by a static phase converter. Real answer is to run a rotary phase converter or a VFD.
Ken Sterl> Bruce (or anyone qualified).....
Reply to
RoyJ
No his question was the reverese, "can I run a single phase load from a 3 phase source" THe answer of course being yes.
jk
Reply to
jk
Re-read his question please, it's the exact opposite of what you indicate.
The short answer is that yes, a 220V single phase machine will generally run just fine on power from a three phase service.
In some rare cases the fact that the typical three phase supply in a commercial environment is 208/120V wye service and therefore only provides 208V phase to phase can be an issue and the machine may have a transformer with adjustable taps to account for that, or you can use buck/boost transformers to compensate. In industrial environments you may have 220V three phase delta service where you actually get 220V phase to phase and there isn't a voltage issue. The 120 degree phase angle has no practical effect generally.
Reply to
Pete C.
Right. Figuring the sine wave overlap, it's more like six-phase power - every 60 degrees of an electric motor rotation one of the phases is at peak voltage, either negative or positive. That's why it's so darned efficient for running motors, since there's always smooth forward motion. It's the difference betweeen a one-lung hit and miss Johnny Popper and a Packard Merlin.
And vibration sensitive things like surface grinders should only run on real 3-phase, for the same reason. Try running it on a phase converter and the surface finish on the products can go straight to heck.
Residential style 120/240 single phase is one center-tapped transformer winding, with the center tap grounded for the Neutral.
The '180 degrees' is a convenient way to explain it because the polarity /appears/ to be opposite when viewed/measured from the center tap. In reality there's no differential at all.
Absolutely - you are going across one secondary core winding of the utility distribution transformer, and there's no worry about phase angle there.
Two times to worry: One is if you have 120/208V Wye power, because it is only 208V phase to phase. Most small motors are dual-voltage rated 208V/240V and will gladly run on 208V but at a higher current draw. But there ARE pieces of gear that do not take kindly to running on 208V - this is when you connect a simple 16V/32V Buck-Boost transformer between the utility and the load to kick 208V up to 240V.
The other: If you have 120/240 Open Delta or "High Leg" power - the High Leg (usually coded Orange and connected as B phase, but not always) is 208V to ground, not 120V.
When you run across Open Delta panels in the field, it is considerate to put a big note on the breaker panel to warn the less enlightened among us that 'The B Phase is 208V to ground, and connecting 120V loads to the B Phase is a Very Bad Idea.'
You can connect 240V loads between any two phases on Open Delta, but you can only connect 120V light loads between A-N and C-N. Try placing them on B-N and they won't live very long - but they glow really bright before they blow...
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
Or 277V/480V. 277 between Phase to Neutral, and 480V Phase-Phase. Found in larger high-rise buildings, large shopping malls, and light industrial, because the higher voltage means much smaller wiring for the same work produced.
When you get close to the end-use location for 120V/208V/240V power you place a step-down transformer. That keeps the voltage drop to a minimum.
Heavy industry (automobile plants, steel mills, forges, foundries, mines, etc.) buys their power "in bulk" at the higher utility distribution voltages in use in their area - 2,400V (almost extinct) 4,800V (LADWP Residential) 9,600V 14,500V 34,500V (LADWP Industrial) etc...
The utility installs fuses or breakers and a KWH Meter recording the power usage on the line going into the complex, and the end user takes over.
The industrial user gets the power cheaper, but has to supply their own underground or aerial cabling, step-down transformers and switchgear, and knock the medium voltage down to the needed voltage at the point of use. And they have to absorb the cost of all the transformer and transmission losses that occur after they 'buy' the power at the KWH Meter.
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Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman
Its usually 240/120.
Do the math
Gunner
Reply to
Gunner
Indeed. Even if they dont have a light source..they can glow really nicely.
Then the magic smoke comes out.
Gunner, who has been putting orange tape on all manner of things the last few months......
Orange County is nearly all Open Delta and 240 vts
Reply to
Gunner
I think his question was the other way around.
Reply to
B Fuhrmann
A lot of the confusion in power phases is that you need to look at where you are measuring the voltages and where the ground is.
If you are just connecting the two hot leads of the 240 line into your house, you have one 240 volt phase. If you also connect the ground, you have two 120 volt phases that are 180 degrees apart.
Three phase power has the three phases 120 degrees apart but the voltages and ground can be referenced different ways. You can also refer to them in different ways, depending on how you are using the power. The common ones are Y with the voltage measured between each phase and the ground centered between the phases and Delta where the voltage is measured between the ends of the phases.
208/120 (Y) is common for large buildings because it gives three 120 volt phases using the ground to each phase. If you connect directly between two phases (withoug connecting to the ground) you have a single phase 208 volt connection. A third option is to connect all three phases (but not the ground) and have a 208 three phase delta power.
240 Delta with a ground at the mid point of one phase is common in small industrial buildings. It gives the 240 three phase power that many machines want , allows you to connect single phase 240 equipment (if it doesn't need a ground) to any of the phases, connect single phase 240 equipment (if it needs a ground) to the phase with the ground, and two 120 phases on the grounded phase.
If the available three phase power is the common 240 V delta with the ground in a leg, your 240V single phase machine is absolutely going to work when connected to the leg with the ground. If the machine does not need the ground as reference, it can work on any 240 volt phase.
If you have 208/120 Y three phase power and the machine is not rated to run on 240/208, then it becomes messier. If you don't need a ground, you can run a 208-240 boost transformer (autotransformer that just makes up the difference between the 208 and 240) to run it. If you need a mid phase ground, you could run a 208-240 center tapped transformer. You connect the input to a 208 phase and the output's center tap to the ground.
Isn't this "fun".
Reply to
B Fuhrmann
240 for delta service, but you're more likely to find 208/120 wye service in most places.
Reply to
Pete C.
Not in Southern California, if my 10+ yrs of machine tool repair is any indicator.
Gunner
Reply to
Gunner
All of the commercial / light industrial places I've been to had 208/120 Y service. Only seen 240 delta in heavy industrial settings. Based on some 5 yrs of CNC service in the northeast.
Reply to
Pete C.
It may help to think of a "phase" as a pair of conductors rather than a wire. A pair of wires comprises a phase. With threephase, there are three wires, call them A, B, and C. (Ignoring ground for the moment). There are therefore three phases: AB, AC and BC. The sinusoidal voltages on these phases are 120 degrees apart. The voltages on each of these wires relative to ground will also be 120 degrees apart but line-to-ground voltage in a wye connection is .867 * line-to-line voltage.
Residential single phase power in the US is 120 volts relative to ground, or 240 volts line-to-line because one line has polarity opposite (180 deg phase shift) to the other w.r.t. ground. Household 120 volt power has one or the other of these lines on the black wire, and neutral (grounded somewhere) on the white wire. 240 volt loads like stoves are connected line-to-line, often do not use the neutral. Others have treated the various voltages found on each phase of commonly-found three-phase power distribution setups.
Reply to
Don Foreman
Ken To visualize phase angles draw 3 parallel lines the same length, put a dot at the left end of the top line, and a dot at the right end of the middle line, and a dot in the middle of the last line. Now imagine those dots moving at the same time, the same speed from one end to the other. Their timing is 120 deg apart and if you look only at the top and middle lines, they are 180 deg apart. 120/208 is star or y just imagine each leg of the y is a coil of a transformer and the middle of the y is grounded. Each end of the y is a phase, the voltage is phase to ground 120, phase to phase 208. On a 120/208 bank all 3 transformers will be the same size. 120/240 is delta imagine a triangle, each side is a coil of a transformer, each point is a phase, in the middle of one side draw a ground. The transformer you ground is the lighting transformer. It has all the single phase load. The voltage is hot leg to ground 120, hot leg to ground 120, power,high,or stinger leg to ground 208, because it is a coil and a half away from ground. Between any 3 hot is 240v. In a 120/240 bank the middle or lighting transformer will be larger to handle the 3phase plus the single phase load. To visualize an open delta erase one side of the triangle. The only way you can tell if you have an open delta versus a delta is to look at the bank, 2 transformers is open delta, 3 is delta. Open delta is not very efficient. It is good for temporary repairs. I could rebuss a bank to open delta so a farmer could milk his cows and not have to wait 4hr for a crew to change out 1 transformer. The secondary coil of the transformers is not center tapped. It is two coils, you have them serialed for 240 and paralleled for 208. You can see some pages from a transformer manual at
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Don
Reply to
Don Murray
120 * SqrRoot 3 (1.73)= 208
Hmmm I did the math, then I stuck the probes of my Fluke on the 3 phase into our shop, and almost every other large distro I've ever had to work in and found 208/120. If your little corner of the world is different, it ain't my fault.
But then again, so much of your little world doesn't agree with reality, why should this be different.
Stuart
Reply to
Stuart Wheaton
I have 440 delta and 240 single phase in my garage, delivered from the mains.
Reply to
Mastic

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