Wiring 230V welder.

Good Morning,
I need to wire up my new Miller Dynasty 200DX. The unit auto detects
115V single phase to 460V 3 phase. I only have a single phase home
with 2 hot wires coming in, so 115V or 230V are my only options. My
confusion is related to the definition of 230V single vs. 230V three
phase. Out of the unit I have 4 leads, 2 hot, a neutral, and a ground.
The instructions use only one hot (the black) lead for single phase
115V and 230V. I would like to use a standard 230V dryer outlet but, a
dryer which also have 2 hot leads use both black and red connected to 2
115V poles in a standard (US) sub panel. What am I missing here?
Before I fry the unit or myself does anyone have any ideas?
Reply to
kevin
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Hi Kevin,
Most (if not all) 230v welders that I have seen use 2 hots and a ground. I don't understand how you could get 230v from a single 115v lead???? I suspect the instructions are either unclear or wrong.....But please don't take my word alone. I would contact Miller and find out real sure how to wire it.
Good Luck !!!
Jeff
Reply to
Jeff Sellers
I would suspect the 230 single phase is for europe. Here we have 230 single phase at home. While stoves heaters and other high power things can run on 400 volt three phase, (sometimes 2 phase). To get some basics: The power lines (single phase) delivers lternating current (AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak violtage is somewhere around 230 volts but at other times (when it is about to change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. By combining several powerlines that changes direction at different times (different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak can you come. Hopes this helps Henning
Reply to
henning
single phase at home. While stoves heaters and other high power things can run on 400
current (AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak
about to change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. By
(different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak
Not quite correct. In US and Canada the voltage is 230/240V single phase. The nominal voltage is usually around 240V between the two hots coming into the house. Each hot wire is 180 degrees out of phase with the neutral which is why they can be combined for 240V operation or used with the neutral for 120V operation.
The peak voltage is 240Vx1.414 (square-root of 2)or 339V. Between each hot and the neutral the voltage is 120V with a peak at 120Vx1.414=170V. The 120V and 240V we talk about are RMS values which stands for root-mean-squared. In effect, this is the equivalent heating that would be provided if a DC voltage were used instead of AC.
The average voltage for either 120 or 240V is 0 volts since the postive part of the sine wave is cancelled by the bottom part of the sine wave each cycle.
3-phase power is usually only available in industrial settings but if you live in a suitable location it can be provided for small operations. I don't think 2-phase power is used anywhere anymore.
In Europe 240V power is used but it is a single-wire system not the split double-wire system we use in North America.
Billh
Reply to
billh
Henning wrote:(clip) The power lines (single phase) delivers lternating current (AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second.(clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This part is right, but what follows is wrong. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ In the US the peak violtage is somewhere around 230 volts but at other times (when it is about to change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. ^^^^^^^^^^^^ The RMS voltage is 230 volts. The *peak* voltage is considerably higher. The *average* is irrelevant, but it is NOT 115 volts. ^^^^^^^^^^^ By combining several powerlines that changes direction at different times (different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This part doesn't make any sense. Available power comes in single phase and three phase. Two phase (mentioned earlier), as far as I know, doesn't exist outside textbooks. Other numbers of phases would have to be purely theoretical, except, perhaps in some very exotic applications. In any case, as long as the waveform is sinusoidal, the relation between average, RMS and peak remains the same, regardless of the number of phases
Reply to
Leo Lichtman
henn> I would suspect the 230 single phase is for europe. Here we have 230 single phase at home. While stoves heaters and other high power things can run on 400
(AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak
change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. By
(different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak
There is no such thing as 2 phase.
The instructions aren't as clear as they could be
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(p. 21)
The lines coming out of your welders are:
green or green/yellow: GROUND black: L1 white: L2 red: L3
red is only used for 3-phase operation.
The first thing you should do is connect the grounding conductor (green or green/yellow) from the welder to the ground on whatever cord you are using.
Connect the black wire to one hot and the white to the other hot for 240V operation.
Connect the black to the single hot and the white to the neutral for 120V operation.
I think the confusing thing is that the white wire coming out of the 200DX can either be hooked up to hot L2 or neutral depending on 240V or 120V use. The welder will figure out how much juice it's getting.
Just ALWAYS connect the ground properly first.
For 240V operation, use a 30A breaker and at least 12 guage wire for the 2 hots and ground. Keep the length of the cord < 79'. Personally, I would use 10 guage, which will let you operate at 120V by using a plug adaptor. Just always make sure the ground is connected correctly in any adaptors you make.
Hope this helps.
Jeff Dantzler Seattle, WA
Reply to
Jeff Dantzler
see
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Reply to
Nathan Collier
phase at home. While stoves heaters and other high power things can run on 400
(AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak
change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. By
(different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak
YES! Thank you Jeff. I was looking at that diagram for a week and it just was not clear to me. I am sure glad I asked. I was leaning toward the standard dryer configuration.
Thanks to all for a great lesson in the US electrical system.
The answer is out there you just have to ask.
Reply to
Kevin
Kevin............On page 21 of your owners manual it shows single phase hook up with a bubble and an arrow to the proper wiring set up for single phase. Do it just like it shows in the diagram. The red wire of the machines cord gets folded back and taped as shown. The black wire goes to one of the flat blades of the plug and the white wire goes to the other flat blade. The ground wire (green) goes to the rounded prong which is the ground. The welder senses what the voltage is. You were given a lot of information which may confuse you. If it does just refer to the diagram and it will work just fine. I have mine hooked up that way so I know for sure it will work OK. I used a standard 50amp plug and receptacle because I use the same set up for my HH175 which came with a 50amp plug already installed. Mine is on a 230v 20amp breaker and it works just fine. Good luck with your project.
single phase at home. While stoves heaters and other high power things can run on 400
current (AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak
about to change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V. By
(different phase) you can get a higher average. The more phases, the closer to the peak
Reply to
bitternut
Use that info only if you want to burn down your house.
Nathan uses a PVC jacketed building wire instead of service cord, that wire is NOT appropriate for use as an extension cord. The insulation is not meant for the abrasion a welder cord will see, and the wires are not designed for the constant flexing that service cable is designed for.
Over time, this cord will have bare spots and broken wires and soon Nathan's house will burn down, and when the adjuster finds this charred cord in the wreckage, Nathan will be paying for his own new house, since his insurance company won't be.
Also, Nathan foolishly assumes that his higher than normal voltage supply will remain constant, wait until he starts welding on a hot day when all the AC units in town are pulling down the voltage.
6/3 SO or better is what you need.
Stuart
Reply to
Stuart Wheaton
thats ridiculous.
the wire is fine for the type of duty being asked of it. its a home cord for occassional usage.
you have many fork lifts driving around in your home garage?
talk about a desperate reach.....hey stu, you ever hear of breakers?
lol...ok stu, so just how far will it drop? far enough to change anything? nope. besides, these figures are based upon running the machine at full output. how often do you weld with a 210 cranked up as high as it will go?
oh i know...youll say "every day" without a doubt. :-)
Reply to
Nathan Collier
Just for the record: I know I maybe oversimplified the theory. I´m well aware of the difference between average and RMS. (I´m a physics teacher). It seems from your clarifications that the US and european powersystem works a bit different. We take in 3 phases 120 degrees shifted plus neutral. Each phase is 230V with respect to neutral. Normal power in outlets is 1 phase plus neutral. sometimes machines run on 2 phases (for instance my waterheater) sometimes 3 phases, (stoves and big welders) (so not quite off topic). More than 3 phases was a purely theoretical thing (never heard of it IRL). Most of Europe has 230V. UK has 240. Thanks for the clarifications Henning
Reply to
henning
What worried me when I saw your description was the cut of ground wire. Not sure of the regulations in US but here (sweden) Running a welder with the ground removed would be highly illegal. After all the ground is there for protection in case something goes wrong in the machine. I hope you mean the neutral line. Here the ground is always yellow/green. I agree with Stuart that solid core wire is not the best choise for a non permanent installation. If nothing else it would be rather stiff. But if the welder stays put and the wire as well that might be a smaller problem. A 30 amp plug with 27 amp current is maybe a bit low safety margin. I´ve done similar things my self but wouldnt talk about it on a homepage. I dont see any reason to use abusive language on any part on the list, please keep the flames private. Henning
Reply to
henning
read the description again. the ground was not removed, i simply used a shielded wire for ground instead of the unshielded wire.
permanent installation. If nothing else it would be rather stiff.
look at the pictures again. the wire is clearly stranded, not solid core.
the 27amp is using MAX setting @ 230 volts. although my current is 240 volts (real world, any drop is minimal) even if youre running at 230 volts it would only be "close" when welding at maximum setting. ive never used maximum setting on a 210 and IN GENERAL nobody else does either. on the rare occassion that you did, you still have plenty of safety margin there. a 30 amp circuit isnt in any danger at 30 amps.
the write up (like all the other write ups i do) is a _rough_ guideline to help people. anybody can say "call an electrician" but i try to prepare those who otherwise might attempt something similar anyway without having any idea of where to start. im #6 result at google.com for "welding cord" and get about 100 page hits per day on that page (5000 hits per day on the welding trailer tech paper which is #1 google result for "welding trailer"). i recieve email nearly every day from people who have used that write up with great success. ive had many electricians tell me the write up is fine in real world applications.
Reply to
Nathan Collier
Nathan, you are wrong, Unless you can post a section of the NEC that says that PVC insulated romex style cable is appropriate for use as a flexible extension cord, don't post anything.
The insulation on that cable is not capable of withstanding hot sparks or even moderate abrasion as will be found in coiling it repeatedly on a concrete floor. The conductors are not flexible enough for repeated bending and will break internally and at the connections and the strain reliefs. That cable is designed and rated to be permanently installed and attached securely to a wall or ceiling and protected from abrasion, heat, chemicals, oil and mechanical stress.
Stuart
Reply to
Stuart Wheaton
i suspect you can quote a section of the NEC that says my cord is "dangerous"? youre being unrealistic and hyper-sensitive.
mine has held up just fine and its used more regularly than any typical homeowner would use it. youre being unrealistic and hyper-sensitive.
....just how much bending do you do when youre welding? i unroll it, weld, roll it back up and put it away. you make it sound like you have shop monkeys continually twisting and rolling up your cord while you weld. youre not being realistic and certainly out of touch with the type of person that would use a cord similar to the write up.
in all reality, if what you claim ever _did_ happen it would trip a breaker. if in doubt, see the disclaimer thats on the page.
Reply to
Nathan Collier
Hey Nate. Been a while...I haven't been following RAMJ+W, or any NG. lately.
Technically, the wire you used is solid core. Even though it has 7, or 9, or whatever strands....usually, any "solid" core heavier than 12 AWG is broken into several strands, only for the fact that it would be virtually unusable if it were truely solid.
Stranded core in that guage would have hundreds of very fine strands and be VERY flexable and usually have rubber insulation, similar to welding cable, for stingers or work clamps.
Given that, the breaking of one or two strands in your solid wire would reduce it to probably somewhere in the neighbourhood of an effective 1-2 AWG loss, which would still very safely carry 30A (around here, 10AWG is code required for 30A. You could break quite a few conductors in that cable before reducing it's current carrying capacity to the danger level)
I use 25feet of 10AWG stranded core as an extension for my 3kw electric brewing kettle, but I've used a 100' 4AWG solid core (actually 3 single conductors taped together) for my Century 230A buzzbox. if you're carefull with it, and it's not in a commercial production environment, it's probably fine.
The only thing I would personally do differently, would be to use the proper ground wire as the ground, and not the white neutral....just might bite you in the ass one of these days if you're putting a new connector on that cable, and forget you used the neutral lead as the ground.
Of course, all that aside, what the OP really wanted to know was, which wires to use for the 2 current carrying conductors, and it would be the black and White.
I wish I had a Dynasty 200DX....or even a MM210, for that matter.
Cheers, Paul
Reply to
Paul Keating
hi paul, it _has_ been awhile brother...where you been? are you still jeeping?
gotcha.
thanks for the clarification. i overbuilt it because i have another adapter that i plug from my welder (generator) to my dryer plug (using the same cord) in the event of a power outage.
_precisely_ what its built for. obviously any commercial shop should have permanent wiring in place. this was just a cord meant to benefit those who live in apartments/condo's or other application where 240 is hard to come by.
Reply to
Nathan Collier
phase at home.
We have 230 (actually something between 220 and 240) single phase power in the US too.
In residential situations that single phase is center tapped at the distribution transformer. Either side of center tap is 120 VAC. Where confusion sometimes arises is that we safety ground that center tap at the service entrance panel. The concept to remember about that is safety ground is *never permitted to carry operating currents*, only fault currents. It is *not* a phase conductor, and does *not* make such a system a two phase system.
Note that a phase is the voltage between two phase conductors. For current to flow, one has to be + with respect to the other at a given instant. In other words, the end points have to be 180 degrees apart. This is not 2 phase. Any system with its two wires separated by 180 degrees is single phase. With only two hot conductors, you can only have one voltage between them at any given instant, so only one phase.
(The two conductors are most easily viewed as being separated by 180 degrees if you look both ways from the center tap in our residential systems. But that's an artifact of measurement, because we commonly reference our measuring instruments to safety ground, and doesn't really mean there are two distinct and separate phases present. There's still only one secondary winding on the distribution transfomer, with one current flowing in one direction at any given moment through it.)
With 3 phase conductors you can have 3 distinct phases, each separated from the other by 120 degrees. With 4 conductors you can have 4 phases, each separated from its adjacent phase conductor by 90 degrees. But since the opposing conductors are actually separated by 180 degrees (remember that the two ends of a single phase can be viewed as being separated by 180 degrees), this can also be called 2 phase power, and is in US practice.
Such quadrature systems were once available in the US, and still are in the area around Niagra Falls and in downtown Philadelphia. (There was some 2 phase in Manhattan until recently, but it is gone now.) Since 2 phase requires 4 wires while 3 phase can be done with 3 wires, 3 phase is the more economical choice, and 2 phase has practically disappeared in this country as systems have been upgraded.
Now back to residential power. We have a neutral wire we run from the transformer center tap to a bond point in the service panel, and use neutral wires connected on the load side of the panel as operating current carrying conductors where we want the reduced voltage available from the transformer center tap.
So in the house on the load side, we can have 240 volts from hot wire to hot wire, or 120 volts from either hot wire to the center tap neutral. The reason we do it this way is so that no wire can be elevated more than 120 volts with respect to safety ground. That reduces the insulation requirements for the wiring. In the old days, when cotton covered wire was used, that was an advantage. Today, when the minimum insulation rating for common wiring is 600 volts, it really doesn't offer any advantage, but we retain it for backwards compatibility.
Three phase power is offered in several forms. The most common is the wye connection with 208 volts phase to phase, and 120 volts from any one phase to neutral (the common point of the wye). Another form is split leg delta. This has 240 volts phase to phase, and one phase is center tapped to provide 120 volts from either of its associated hots to neutral (as in single phase residential wiring). The third hot is called the "high leg", and cannot be used with neutral to provide 120 volt power.
There are other variations which will be encountered in commercial and industrial settings, most of which have no provision for providing 120 volts other than by using a step down transformer off one phase (recall that a phase is the voltage between two phase conductors).
(AC) that changes direction 100/120 times per second. In the US the peak
change direction it goes down to 0 volts) the AVERAGE of this is 115V.
Incorrect in either system. The average voltage of a sinusoid waveform is *zero*. Peak voltage in a US residential system is 339 volts. 240 is the RMS voltage. RMS is what we usually use when talking about power, because it has the same heating value in a resistance as would a DC current of the same voltage. In other words, our old friend P = I * E gives the same answer for DC and RMS voltages. (Of course with AC we also have to consider power factor for reactive loads, but lets not go there for now.)
With respect to wiring the Dynasty to 240 volt single phase, simply connect black to one hot, white to the other hot (electrically it doesn't matter which is which), and green to safety ground of a single phase 240 plug. Fold back and tape up red. It is not used in a single phase system. Note that neutral is not used in this configuration.
For use on 120 volts, connect black to hot, white to neutral, and green to safety ground of a 120 volt plug.
For 3 phase power, connect black to one hot, white to another hot, and red to the third hot, with green again to safety ground. Note that there is no neutral connection for this machine in this configuration.
(Using white as a hot can be confusing to some residential electricans, who are used to white only being used for neutral. But this is the way white is intended to be used by Miller in their power cord.)
The welder has Autoline circuitry to detect the different voltages and phases of the different hook ups, and will compensate automatically for that internally.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman
I agree. You often see some horrendous wiring in home shops and small garages. People sometimes get away with it for years. But it is not Code conforming, and your insurance carrier will void your coverage if it is found. The correct wire is cheap insurance, do it right the first time and avoid the potential problems.
Gary
Reply to
Gary Coffman

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