Rollie's Dad's method

56th edition, circa 1966 I think, doesn't have this. The sections on lathe construction are much abbreviated.

Pete

Reply to
artfulbodger
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Sigh. The Moore Book. Five years ago I almost bought it at $100, then didn't. Now I still want it, but it's $130. That's from Moore's own distribution; maybe I should look on abebooks & see what's available.

What's in the book, Jim? And how big is it? I hear the photography is superb. True? I hear that the writing is lucid even when explaining esoteric whatnots. Yes? And it's not like in a home shop anyone's going to machine their castings in a temperature controlled oil bath, but is there anything _practical_ to be learned from that book? Or is it mainly one you read going "ooooh" and "aaah," before stepping out to your garage and bodging away as usual?

By "you" above, with the bodging and all, I mean "me." Of course.

So, the book, is it worth chasing down?

(Ed Huntress, are you reading this?)

Pete

Reply to
artfulbodger

I have nothing to compare to: my SB9 is the only lathe I've ever used. It's old (1946), and simple, which I like; it can do good work, and it's very quiet, which matters to me more than it should. (I don't know why. I like its calm, low note as it munches through steel.) There's something fitting in using a leather-belted machine to make the hardware for a steam launch.

But worship? Nooooo, uh-uh. If I could get my hands on something five times as heavy and ten times as powerful and a half-century newer, shoot, I'd do it right quick.

What I don't really like on machine tools is electronics. It's an aesthetic thing, I guess. Iron lasts a hundred years, circuitry goes "bzzt" and lets you down. Once the magic smoke leaks out of a chip, that's that. But I think the real issue is that I make a living of computer geekery, and when I'm in the shop I want to get as far from such stuff as I can. I don't even like digital calipers.

I know, I know....

Reply to
artfulbodger

I guess a lotta work can be involved in that, but it doesn't scare me like the thought of scraping down the bed. Mine is only a 9" lathe, but the bed is five feet long, and that's a great big arena for making mistakes. I don't know what Joe HSM would use for a straightedge; but even with the proper tools, it would be hard to scrape the whole bed straight.

God help me, I kind of enjoy scraping. I don't know why. I think it has to do with making a reeeeeally true surface out of thin air. But I'm still glad that my lathe only needed scraping on the tailstock. It was a nice, bite sized job.

Pete

Reply to
artfulbodger

I don't know why all lathes, or at least all benchtop lathes, aren't made with three feet. There's no such thing as a wobbly three-legged stool.

I've thought of putting an iron block under the tail-end feet of my lathe: both feet would bolt to it, and its bottom would be a shallow vee. There would be a narrow land in the center, with a single bolt hole for mounting to the bench. Of course I'd put the head end on a similar, but flat bottomed, block.

The only problem I can think of is that everything could end up too flexible. I don't know. Would my nice, fairly stiff lathe get all vibratey if I did this? Anyone got any thoughts about it?

Reply to
artfulbodger

All it would take is one experience, where you have a serious amount of metal to move, and you do it. From that day forward, it would be difficult to revert back to the belt slapping. Mind you, I fully appreciate all the things you've said, and even agree, in some small way, with your thoughts. Trouble is, when you've run machines for gain and must perform, it's a different world. Many of us don't use machines for therapy, we use them to accomplish a given task. When there's a basement to be dug, I can't get interested in doing it with a spade, not when there's a back hoe available that will get it done in an afternoon. I gather you feel the same way, but don't have access to the back hoe.

On that, we agree totally. One of the things about which I'm most proud is the fact that I can operate machine tools with the screws, and enjoy success. I do not, nor have I ever, used a DRO, nor do I care to. I am not CNC literate, choosing, instead, to do it the hard way. I came from a generation that had to learn procedures, there were no magic bullets that permitted one to run the machines without knowledge, hopefully gaining skill in the bargain. Using a DRO is akin to using carbide inserts in lieu of learning how to sharpen cutters. It is yet another tool that permits one to operate a machine without gaining the skills that would normally be necessary. The world is raising *machinists* that don't have a clue about machining. I choose to not be a part of that generation. Like you, all my measuring instruments are manual. I do not own anything that requires a battery.

It appears you do!

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

I was corresponding lately with an Aussie who's built a gorgeous triple-expansion steam engine to put in his launch. Intricate design, really nice work. Like me, the guy's a self-taught amateur, but anyway his results are pretty.

He swears there's no way he could've done the job without a DRO. It's absolutely essential, he says, period. Me, I wouldn't mind using one because a lot of tasks would be speeded up; but indispensable? I dunno, I've never used one, but it seems like with a little more care and a lot more math I can do fine without. Great timesaver, sure, but I'd rather take the grand or two that it would cost and put the money into better machines.

Eh, yeah, true. But it always happens. Skill is the priciest ingredient in making things, so they always look for a way to make a process dummyproof. Why pay a skilled tradesman a lot of dollars when you can just give a monkey a banana and get the same work done?

It's sad to see it happen, but a lot of trades have just gone away. Are there any skilled shoemakers on the planet? (Beats me. Not many.) Cars used to be lacquered by hand, with camel hair brushes: auto painting was a very involved trade by itself. But spray equipment is cheaper than skill, and that trade went away. Tailors, potters, glassblowers, boatbuilders ... think of plasterers: sheetrock takes little skill and the results are pretty good, so now there are no real plasterers around.

Market economy. I can't fault the companies who want their products made by less skilled people: gotta stay competitive. I'm sure you're right that it has changed the trade, maybe degraded it. But at bottom, the reason we have technology is so we don't have to have skill.

Anyway in machining, even if the average skill level goes down, probably there will always be those few wizards around who can do anything.

As a hobbyist I'm lucky: no bottom line to worry about. I can do things the hard way and nobody can fire me for it. You should've seen me doing the bolt circle on a steam engine's cylinder head ... with toolmaker's buttons, just for the fun.

Pete

Reply to
artfulbodger

Consider the possibility of the bed having machined without sufficient time for it to stress relieve. (They used to allow them to season for some time after roughing before final machining.)

Now, the bed will warp *after* final machining. With a three-point suspension, you have no way to apply stress to cancel that warp. With four-point, you are fine.

Of course, jeweler's lathes are single-point support -- a column under the headstock end. But the overall design suggest to me that there is very little need to make provisions for corrective stress on those -- there is a *lot* of meat in the beds for their size.

Now -- also think of a long bed lathe, with a fairly heavy cut. This could introduce twist to the bed under load -- either a cut from the carriage, or twist applied by driving a big drill bit into the workpiece. For something like this, the four-foot design gives it extra anti-twist support.

But -- FWIW -- the Atlas/Clausing 6x18 lathe has a three-point mounting -- at least my old one with sleeve bearings and a blue paintjob does. I believe that the later ones with the ball or tapered roler bearings in the headstock have the four-point mounting.

Try it and find out. Try heavy drilling with a Morse taper twist drill in the tailstock taper. Try heavy cuts near the end of the bed. See what happens.

Be prepared to make a second tailstock end block with all four feet if it introduces problems.

And report back on your results.

Right now, I like the four-foot mount for my Clausing, with factory supplied hollow bolts threaded through the feet, and smaller bolts through it all to clamp it down to the factory pedestal. I did have to do a bit of tuning to get everything level. And that was not that long a bed (24" between centers) for the size of the swing (12") and the bed width.

Enjoy, DoN.

Reply to
DoN. Nichols

The key here is what you said in the last sentence, first paragraph. I would likely agree, considering he is not a seasoned machinist. Using screws properly does not come easily, nor is there any indication that you have screwed up, not, at least, until you're finished with the operation. (Don't ask). The scrap I made gaining the skills to use screws reliably was criminal. Why I was kept on the job continues to baffle me these 45 years later.

Me, I wouldn't mind

You'll also come out with greater skills. In place of a DRO, always check each move with a 6" scale (or larger, if necessary). You'll maybe not catch an error of a thou or two, but it will show a turn of the handle or a transposed number instantly. I realize that operators of CNC's don't do that, but seasoned manual machinists did, almost without fail. It becomes second nature.

Strangely, the trade, while having been degraded, is turning out the finest work we've ever turned out. Of that, there is no doubt. But it comes with a price. Are we better off? Probably we are. Still, to have the skills necessary to do things the old (hard) way bring me, in some strange way, lots of comfort.

And these are the people that will be in demand in good time. Probably right after I'm dead.

It's not only fun, it's very informative. Think of the skill you're acquiring in the bargain. And the pride in having done a job well, and with your hands, not electronics. Very cool, Pete.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Harold you've never run NC machinery so you would not know, but seasoned NC programmers do a very similar step when setting up jobs. They "single block" each line of the program when running the first few parts. This means each line executes only after the continue button is pressed, and each operation is inspected for the desired result.

You say to check before each cut - which is what happens when in single block mode. The only difference is once things are tuned up it's kinda hard to get in there while the program is running, with a six inch scale.

Where can DROs be used to good advantage? For a home machinist, the cost of purchasing new feed screws can be a *good* deal larger than putting a decent DRO on the machine. I know what you are going to reply - that a lathe with worn our leadscrews isn't a lathe at all, and you would never allow one in your shop. But for the person who buys an otherwise-serviceable lathe, and does not want to mortage his house to put all new feedscrews on it, the DRO is a way to inexpensively recover the missing accuracy.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Thanks for the info, Jim. Yep, you're dead right---I have no clue about any type of NC on machine tools. I can't help but think that the scale process is a carryover from manual machining. Those of us that were properly tutored learned that trick early on-------or we made a serious amount of scrap. I was *lucky*, I managed to make the scrap in spite of the scale!

All good points to consider, Jim, and I agree with you totally. I've been somewhat spoiled by having screws that can be, for the most part, trusted. My only experience with a bad screw was when I was in training and was assigned to a large K&T horizontal that had a vertical head attachment. I was shocked to find the screw was off more than .020" in a foot. You likely know how I found out.

I had to replace the nut for the cross slide on my Graziano years ago when it wore enough that the major diameter of the screw started dragging on the minor diameter of the nut. The nut is split in halves, top and bottom, and is spring loaded such that it keeps backlash out. Once it started dragging improperly, the lathe wouldn't repeat. A new nut solved the problem.

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

Most used lathes I've bought over the years have acme threads on the crossfeed screws that are worn so badly, they look like V-threads in the center of their travel. I think this is the reasoning behind the instructions most folks receive, at one time or another, to "sneak up on it" when trying to hit a dimension.

I suffered with this only so long on my 9" SB machine and then went and purchased a brand new 'direct reading' dial set - the nut, screw, and larger dial, all from south bend. At the time it wasn't outrageous.

Then when I went up to a bigger machine, I knew to ask right at the start what it would take to fit a brand new leadscrew to the machine before I finalized the deal. It also had a sharp-v special. I got a good deal on that one as well, this was around the time when SB was going crazy with their parts prices, the dealer had a NOS one on hand, still taped to the original packing stick.

Aside from headstock bearings, I would say that the crossfeed screw is the single biggest issue that will make a decent lathe into a dog, or turn a disaster of a machine into a tolerably useable tool.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

Am I right that those parts are no longer available at any price? Didn't SB tank about five years ago?

Reply to
artfulbodger

artfulbodger wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net:

formatting link

No. You can still buy a new lathe from them as far as I know.

Reply to
D Murphy

Well, son of a gun. I seemed to recall that they'd closed their doors under financial distress a while back. Guess they're still around, though. 'Course, I note that there are no actual parts listed on parts.htm ... but I guess a phone call would answer the questions.

Reply to
artfulbodger

SM tanked (standard modern)

Reply to
nospam.clare.nce

LeBlond took them (SB) over. At least for parts. At the time I purchased all my feedscrews from them, I dealt directly with SB, it was more than ten years ago. Now if I were going to do this, there's an aftermarket outfit (Miller Machine?) that folks here on rcm recommend for replacement crossfeed screws.

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

That's a bit of a touchy subject with me at this point in time as well. I'm detecting a .0002" out of round condition on turns of late. I realize it's not much, but any at all is more than I care to have. I searched for bearings and was shocked to find a new main bearing for the Graziano can be had for a paltry sum of only $1,600. There's a second bearing farther back on the spindle that would likely be wise to replace as well, but it's not nearly as expensive. Only several hundred dollars. One hell of a shocker when you consider I paid only $4600 for the machine back in '67. Speaks volumes about the decline in the American dollar. Considering I now own a precision grinder, I'll likely limp by with the old bearings, grinding anything of importance. That's assuming I ever get the house finished and actually start using the shop, that is. :-)

Harold

Reply to
Harold and Susan Vordos

If you have the bearing number, contact Alpine Bearing in Boston. They have a website.

Gunner

"Considering the events of recent years, the world has a long way to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the US." unknown

Reply to
Gunner

Indeed. Gunner's politics may be highly suspect but he's dead right on this one, bearings come at all different prices that range from full retail to rock-bottom wholesale - and they are the same bearings.

I found that out when I purchased abec-7 bearings to re-do and M head a few years ago. I went to new hampshire ball bearing, but the folks who own the place I worked at night had an excellent working relationship with them - and I was able to purchase through them.

Jim

Jim

Reply to
jim rozen

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