Thermostat set-back

If I recall correctly, you are going to have to move soon because of a new road being constructed. If that were not the case, I would say insulate.

To keep water pipes from freezing, you might insulate the pipes first. And then make a low voltage high current transformer from a microwave oven tra nsformer and connect the low voltage so the current circulates through the pipes. That is the cheapest thing I can think of to keep your pipes from f reezing.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster
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While this works in theory, especially when you use a welder to thaw frozen pipes, I think it's a bad idea for general use. Pipe heating tape designed for the purpose will do a far more reliable job. Just monitor it. Won't help if it breaks during a cold snap...or six months ago cuz you never checked..

Just make an inventory of everything temperature dependent and take steps to keep each item warm enough. Doesn't make much sense to keep the whole building hot when the pipe nearest the soffit vent is the thing that's gonna freeze.

google "fenestration". There are many programs that do more than windows. I used an earlier version of this one

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when I started thinking about weatherization.

Just remember that "averages" don't freeze. Short exposed sections of pipe freeze.

And freezing ain't your only potential problem when it's wet and cold.

Reply to
mike

You can start with heat trace tape and insulation for safety - Or convert the sprinkler system over to a Dry Standpipe system with compressed air in the pipes and a little dedicated Wob-L-Piston compressor, then all you have to worry about is the Fire Water risers and the water charging valve, and water mains freezing on you.

But for the machines you want to keep them above the dew point, I'd say 45 or 50F. As others have mentioned, that's not the safest because you'll get cold spots.

Are you going to be there a while? Do you Own or only Rent?

If you answer Yes, we own and we don't plan to leave anytime soon, I'd look into adding insulation. wherever it can be done economically and easily. And not just the radiant foil sheeting, considering it's manufacturing and needs to be easy to clean I'd look into Fiberglas batts and something to mechanically hold it in place. You wouldn't want to hang and maintain Drywall, and I've seen a web of baling wire fail to hold it in place...

I'd think either 1/2" welded wire mesh or the diamond Chicken Wire, and furring strips along the joists to hold it up. Or perhaps a full pallet of the factory-primed Tempered Hardwood Pegboard so the backside is primed, and you bomb the face side with an Airless and some gloss white enamel when you get done hanging it.

And nail the sprinkler pipes with Red, Water with Blue, Gas with Yellow, Compressed Air with Sky Blue, and the electrical conduits with Orange or Smoke Grey while you're at it. The holes allow a bit of ventilation to let moisture out (or the roof leak to drain through to find it easier...) and you can poke through the holes to locate the joists before screwing in new pipe hangers.

But I would think NO vapor barrier below the insulation (toward occupied space) since there's no attic, on a flat roof you won't be ventilating the space above it. But you'd better get a few more opinions on that.

(Unless you start drilling holes in all the fireblocks and the eaves and putting in the round Mini-Vents all over the place, leave a ventilation gap above the batts, and rig something to ventilate out at the ridge. Then you could put Tyvek Housewrap under the pegboard.)

And/Or you do the foam spray on roofing - that's insulation too.

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)

I'd have to check insurance and city regulations to see if I cam do anything physical to sprinkler system, they are rather picky. The building is close to 20k' so doing anything would be expensive, but I like heat tape. I wonder if it can be purchased in bulk?

Reply to
Tom Gardner

I never heard of that, where can I learn more? We STILL don't know about the road, it could miss us by feet, ODOT won't tell us.

Reply to
Tom Gardner

I do not know where you can find more information. You might find some inf o on welding sites talking about using a welder on the lowest amp setting t o thaw out pipes. You can find out about rewinding microwave oven transfor mers on the internet. Using current to warm the pipes works well where you can not get to the pipes. You only need a couple of turns on the MWO tran sformer secondary.

If you can get to the pipes you can use heat cables but they are not super cheap. They consist of two wires with a semiconductor material between the m and look kind of like 300 ohm twin lead. At room temperature the semicon ductor material has high resistance so very little power in consumed. But at about 40 F the semiconductor material has lower resistance and so warms the tape and whatever it is in contact with.

Dan

Reply to
dcaster

You'd have to go to a Fire Sprinkler company to convert it over from the more common Wet Pipe system you have now to a Dry Pipe system, and they have to recertify it. You might actually get a little break on the fire & property insurance, less chance of water damage.

As I understand it, it should be fairly simple - the sprinkler piping in the building wouldn't need to be changed, it's still got to meet the same flow and coverage plans from before. Though it might call for changing all the sprinkler heads.

But all the valve gear at the riser and the flow switch would need to be replaced. And run two power circuits over for the little air compressor and the Heat Trace on the stack. (I've seen these setups, they put them on frozen food warehouses and huge walk-in fridges and freezers. )

And no, they probably won't let you hook it up to Shop Air, it's supposed to be totally independent.

They do sell the heat tape in bulk 500' rolls, but it's a bit tricky to terminate. I know you enjoy the challenge, but for the less tech inclined I'd say probably better off getting pre-made lengths.

And once you get the place freeze-proofed, then you just have to keep it above dewpoint so the machines don't rust. And if the power and/or heat fails, it's not nearly as big a disaster.

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)

You need to get their attention and make them tell you, so you can make plans. Limbo is a bad place to be stuck in.

Hint, have your Lawyer write the letter, that might get a response. Or try a FOIA Request.

You do NOT want to rig up running current through the pipes on a regular basis, you're going to set up a galvanic failure of some sort. And you do NOT want Fire Sprinkler pipes popping leaks all over the place...

Use regular heat trace tape and foam or Fiberglas overwrap insulation.

Reply to
Bruce L. Bergman (munged human readable)
[ ... ]

I hope that they are better than that used in some brands of electric blankets. They use a two-conductor wire stitched into the blanket in a zig-zag pattern so they don't cross. Hard outer jacket, then a resistive inner insulation between and around the conductors. the more you use them, the higher the resistance gets, and the higher you have to set the temperature control (not a true thermostat) on the blanket. I tend to use mine more than my wife does, and after a year, there is an order of magnitude difference in resistance measured at the connector at the foot of the blanket.

If the pipe heater has a similar lifetime problem, it will get less efficient as it ages. If you install some, measure the resistance just after you install it, and before you use it (and note the room temperature), and check it annually at the same room temperature to be sure.

There used to be another brand which had resistance wire, with little safety thermostats every so often (you could feel the lumps as you felt your way along the wire. But if you happened to tuck one of the thermostats in at the foot or the side of the bed, that would open up as that area overheated, and since it is a series string -- no heat.

This winter (the old resistive insulation one was too old, and too expensive), I did some web searching, trying to find the old brand, with no luck. But -- I found a new type -- A low voltage DC type. Each side has its own controller and power supply, and after a couple of weeks of use (only by me), both sides measure the same resistance, so I have hopes of this one lasting.

Enjoy, DoN.

Reply to
DoN. Nichols

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