what trade would you guys recommend for a teenage boy?

Are you trying to trade to get one, or get *RID* of one? :)

No, joining the shooting gallery is not a good idea if you may end up the target.

Abrasha

Well, I've got a pretty thick skin - that's a pretty toxic stroke to lay on a kid you've never met. He's a great kid. I'm sure you'd like him. - GWE

And this is a bad thing? Even in Iraq or Afghanistan he would be safer than any normal kid. Do a google on traffic deaths in the US, then match them for the same time frames and per 100,000s

One should also note..the Navy doesnt often set off land mines, if he picked that branch of the service.

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"shit happens" - unknown

Im surprised at all you intelligent types decrying there is no such thing as luck. Call it probability, Karma etc..but the engineers from yore knew all about luck.

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

"Grant Erwin" wrote He has a real issue with arbitrary authority.

Then he's the kid that needs the service the most. In the service when he mouths off to the boss, he gets his butt kicked and taught a lesson. In civilian life he'll just get fired and won't learn a thing. Get him in the Navy or Air Force and learn a trade there. Tell him to pick something he can use after his hitch is up.Cannon cocker or tank driver won't help much later. To fly in the military takes a four year college degree and good grades, except in the Army where he'll fly a helicopter low and slow in dangerous places.

I've been a carpenter for 30 years. I'm about to retire and go into gunsmith. If I had to do it over, I'd be an electrician. Clean work for the most part, not too heavy, journeyman now is at about $30 hr. An apprentice starts at half that. The benefits for union construction trades are the best that can be had on the planet outside of high level politicians. The job is portable, and even in the slow times there is lots of side work around.

The music industry is very insecure. Talent has very little to do with big time success. Look at the music kids listen to to prove my point. His music passion, hopefully, is only temporary. Good for getting laid but not for raising a family. I know a few musicians, really good ones. They are all relatively poor.

I've raised three boys. I know what I'm talking about.

Good luck, Tom

Tom...... I couldn't agree with you more.

snip----

Yep! Every word.

Harold

The lesson being, cower before authority. That'll prepare him to be a good little corporate robot.

Or perhaps he'll learn a different lesson, don't get mad, get even, and learn the fine arts of backstabbing and sabotaging one's superior, or how to be a slacker without getting caught, or even to take up the fine art of fragging.

At least in the private sector he has a more socially acceptable way of dealing with bullying by bosses. He can walk away.

Gary

On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 07:04:10 -0800, "larsen-tools" vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:

And this comment comes from one who learnt their manners in the forces perhaps?

Perhaps he had a family that new the difference between authority that was earned, and could be respected and understood, and _arbitrary_ authority, that is not always earned, and can be abused with impunity, often in a screaming, bullying, unpleasant way, with no escape or questioning possible. The history orf the military is full of instances of bullying to the point of suicide, and fatal stuff-ups by "leaders" who would not listen to advice.

I have seen a couple of "punk kids" who went into the forces "to straighten them out". One ended up in a strait _jacket_.

.........no I'm not! remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Spike....Spike? Hello?

On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 20:04:46 GMT, Gunner brought forth from the murky depths:

"Amen!" he said, non-religiously.

"in the days of yore" is more common usage, Gunner.

Well, if you go with the Eastern thought, everything that happens is merely physical manifestation of our vibrations. Scary, huh?

Now bookmarked, thanks.

------------------------------- Iguana: The other green meat! -------------------------------

Well put. I think that most of the kids who grow into trouble have indeed had the second type impressed on them.

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

I hate comments like this. Why do people feel the need to elevate themselves by adding engineer to a title w/ no justification(ie Sanitation Engineer=janitor, Fluid Transfer Engineer = gasboy, etc)? I worked VERY hard for my engineering degree and my license. Not to sound like an elitist, but I don't really want to "share" that title w/ a college(or high school) dropout who wants to feel like they are doing something worthwhile. In one of the recent issues of Design News the editor(Kohl), brought up this very issue. He presents his view that this is part of the reason why engineering enrollments are down, more engineering is being outsourced, and the prestige that engineers used to have is lost. It's late, and I'm tired right now, so I am not going to rant about this for long, but it's disgraceful the way the title engineer is thrown around. I quite honestly felt almost guilty about having the title until I completed my licensure.

JW

i was doing some research on my family tree and noticed that my grandfather back in 1900 was a 15 yr old harness maker apprentice... i then noticed that in 1910 he was a steam boat man.. i guess the harness making thing did not work out for him..... but the steam boat man worked out and then he went onto the more modern fuel for boats.. as he retired as bottom line is that if he stayed with the harness making which was lucrative back in 1900(alot of horses) the decline in horse use made him move on... if we still used horses they would be importing them from CHINA now.... let him get into something that cannot be imported from China, mexico, India, etc.... i had to call ATT today and had to ask the girl ( who could not pronounce a word that i did not know what she was trying to say???) i asked her if she spoke any other languages other than english.. she stated Yes, spanish.. i said oh, well i dont speak spanish and i can understand what she is trying to say when she used one of the words.... i then asked her to let me speak with an english speaking person... a guy got on the phone and he stated that she was trying to tell me that for "security purposes" i said, Oh, she kept saying "security purpo.. i did not know what that was... oh well another job going to a spanish speaking place(lower wages).....

A building engineer is a 2nd or 3rd class boiler engineer. Just like a railway engineer used to have to be. It's what "engineering" started out as - operating "engines", which relied on "boilers" in the early years. You have to know what you are doing to operate a boiler efficiently and safely., so don't get your panties in a knot over the terminology.

Good analogy. Prehistoric horses originated in North America and spread all over the world. By 7000 BC they were almost extinct except for an area in Central Asia. Horses were not seen in America again until Columbus brought them from Spain in 1494 So in a way, we did have to import them..

Chuckle..I dont know any vet who "cowers before authority"

Do you?

Gunner

"Gun Control, the theory that a 110lb grandmother should fist fight a 250lb 19yr old criminal"

I was more annoyed by the reference to it not taking a high-level degree. As for a building engineer, I don't know. I have met a few of them, and to call them an engineer is insulting. I was selling something once and we got to talking about careers and stuff and I told these two I was an engineer. "Oh, so are we" he says "We're the building engineers for the Kahler hotel". Little later we ended up in the shop to grab a tape measure. They were sure impressed by how well built that drill press was(my bridgeport). Couldn't figure out how I managed to break so many drill bits square like that though. I tried to explain to them what it really was, but it was apparent they didn't have a clue.

As with any profession, there are exceptions and maybe these two were on the lower end of the scale.

Isn't there a difference between a boiler operator and a boiler engineer? My understanding is an operator is fully certified to operate and maintain while an engineer would be actually designing the boiler. Different realms and different areas of knowledge and expertise.

In any case, this may not be the best case to argue my point. I don't discount that to operate a boiler you want someone with a level of intelligence and understanding(unlike my examples in a previous post). But I still stand by the statement that the term engineer has lost it's prestige and respect due to it's overuse when it is not applicable.

JW

I believe that many states have laws prohibiting the use of the "engineer" title for any one not degreed in engineering, and these laws are rountinely and widely ignored. I once carried the title of "project engineer" for a construction company and my civil engineer buddy pointed out that I (or my employer) was breaking the law. Gary Brady Austin, TX