Re: Dump your CAM & get Cimatron



Who the fuck is "they"? No CAM company wants to spend money on CAD development any longer. Most have very tired, outdated, wireframe CAD with some crappy solid modeling tossed on top.... SmartCAM, Mastercam, etc.

All SolidWorks is an easier to use Pro/E that's makes full use of what Windows has to offer with more modern marketing with what probably is the worlds best VAR network.

Wrong. Its now working very well and that's why so many CAM companies are moving to offer CAM inside of SolidWorks. While I don't like SolidWorks using a program like Solid Edge with ST when you have to seriously modify your customers model now makes the situation tolerable. Even better, is the FACT that SolidCAM doesn't just run inside of SolidWorks. If Autodesk ever gets their shit together with Inventor-Fusion it might become a very attractive option and would not require the use of Solid Edge with ST. That's a big if because Autodesk is an asshole company.
SolidWorks gives CAM developers some great tools to work with. Imagine being able to have high quality chaining you can actually see rather than what Mastercam has now... chains with thin wireframe arrows that often disappear and are often very hard to see.

Nope. CNC Software has no choice now other than to try and make Mastercam CAD much, much better. Most other companies have thrown in the towel and will ride the integrated into SolidWorks approach like many other CAM vendors are doing. CAM is now going to get much better at a much faster pace than in the recent past.
Speaking of the past... for the wrong answers from someone who lives in the very distant past and talks out his ass about machining and most CADCAM subjects be sure to read your pal Cliffy Huprich's response. As usual it will be wrong, filled with lies and so uninformed that it will be laughable.
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If you'd been paying attention "they" Solidworks/Solidedge/SolidCAM/ & a few others over the years. -geeze - must have been on rant at that time huh?

No Shit Sherlock Pro/E Pro/Man I started with ver14 circa '95 same with Cimatron, because Pro/Man sucked so bad, we had to use Cimatron. Nothing else comparied besides UG or SDRC-both of with sucked at CNC toolpaths at that time. I started with Solidworks 96 just to play with at home.

Well were dose it run? outside? Thats gotta suck.

Forget Autocad - its for Architects & 2.5D world people- which there are allot still left. It always has been & always will.

No problem in IT13, you have a choice of chain highlighting by font or color. Also MANY options on how to chain selections - by window, criteria, level, pick , backup , closed/open-surf edges/ & tons more

Why CAD better? WTF? MasterCAM is what is says: CAM with CAD fer show? not really a stong point? Nobody does detailed technical drawings/article drawings with MC detailing? maybe just "In House" stuff for the guys on the floor.

Seen Cimatron Elete? WAY too much for the "average" shop.

Seems like you are the only one with a problem with it. I dont see anyone else complaining?

Its official he's now the"Kernel Clifford" - young grasshopper- somebody's gotta keep you in check. I think he's doing a good job at that. If I were to guess, I'd say he's quite a few up on ya! Man you must be feeling .......? KiNdA sIcK?
BB has the right idea. GTFOH

Wrong Wrong Wrong the whole fucking world is wrong- is that all you can say?

some people think they are informed by reading & running their mouth, others gain wisdom by doing.

Laughing - HA - just look at the waste of time & shit you leave here- Now thats a laugh.
OK(believe nothing you hear & maybe 50% of what you see)
-- Gil© Member of ==American Toolmakers= using the "old world" ways with yesterdays IT13 building Tomorrows Dreams
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This makes no sense. You must have taken my advise and shoved one of your Holeum's up you ass. Take it out and try again.

Fascinating. Thanks for sharing this. The reason I should care is?

Try a search for InventorCAM. Let us know how you make out.

Nope. Wrong again. Your track record on being right really sucks. Autodesk Inventor isn't based on AutoCAD at all and it is purely mechanical.

No doubt but when it comes to production machining Cimatron doesn't have the tools. Suggest you read what I said should be done with Gibbscam till it sinks in.

Ever heard of Mastercam Design? It's what it says: Mastercam Design.

Nobody keeps me in check and you know it. Many have tried and all have failed and all will continue to fail.

I'd say you're full of shit and are desperate.

Suggest you worry about your own ass rather than BB who's got his own problems.
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But once you design a Mastercam who would buy it?? Have YOU ever designed one?
--
Cliff

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Yes I did! Quite a few actually. A Mastercam car! Pinwood Derby special XYZ "scale" to fit a standard pinewood block. I still have one for show & tell. When the kids were small(mid 90's) we did a "Shop Field Trip" day one Saturday. So long story short, I "borrowed" the MC car 3D geometery, put it in Cimatron- fixed-itup so it was watertight fer shits & giggles, xyz scaled it, toolpathed-it. As an experiment& fer grins I brought it into Solidworks from Cimatron thru IGES file (try that one Gurus) One reason nobody likes Cimatron- F'in IGES default settings are ..... well... wrong for most everybodys CAD/CAM. A couple toggle settings & it makes sweet IGES files for Mastercam (with drawings/views/levels/dims everything nicey nicey not ontop of one another geometery like I'm sure most have expericed with Cimatron translation + a dumb solid into Solidworks to do additional cuts (resessed wheel wells)/rads - tweeking, & so on.
I have 2 sons, so there have been quite a few Pinwood derby cars. Needless to say, the CNC machined cars never won. But they looked nice. My oldest did win the Derby one year, his 10 min of fame. It was a Dad/ Son hand carved- the way its supposed to be.
Over the years my G-Code MC car & other Solid car designs have made it onto many blocks of wood for kids in other Packs & even some Aluminum "Dad's" cars, by one of my Hurco buddies I gave the code to.
Well, just one more reason to "Dump your CAM & get .................... oh ya Cima - Who?
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I've "keept" this one going a while now, so lets do alittle review on the reasons TO or not to DUMP & RUN:
1) Cimatron has been light years ahead of Mastercam for years.Mar 11, 6:16 am
2)> vinny wrote:

poor Vinny, I think he's in a better place now? BD > Mastercam is steaming pile of shit compared to Cimatron, it ain't worth> adding anything too. Hehehehehe! Steaming POS LOL!
3)If your a wireframe & surface head, you'd love Cimatron IT13(its only 6 yrs old) There is nothing that I have found it cant surface model, fillet, blend -cheat ect.. Not having to be concerned with silly things like surface normals & drive surfaces.
4)The FACT is that Mastercam is a very buggy program that costs shops lots to lost time.
JB on a "good day"<g>
5)I'll back that statement. Mastercam blows for drilling cycles. I ran Cimatron for 15 years prior to our shop switching to Mastercam and i was severely dissapointed. We switched to Mastercam four years ago and it has been nothing but a dissapointment to me.
Hmmm
6)> No first hand experience myself yet, but our Cimatron gurus were

Sweet!
7)I have played with Catia, UGS, Solidworks, have ten years in with Inventor, 20 with Autocad, you guys have motivated me to try out Cimatron.
Amen brother!
8)One other cool feature of an integrated system is you get a REAL modeler. Much hype has been touted by a certain person here about "Synchronous Technology" but I must say it's THE biggest advance for those of use that must tweak a customers "dumb" solid model to make it work. It's dead simple to use. It even keeps a history of the changes. I would think Cimatron would have something similar. (upto last post #40-Bill Mar 13, 8:03 pm)
will continue later.
9)
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I've "keept" this one going a while now, so lets do alittle review on the reasons TO or not to DUMP & RUN:
1) Cimatron has been light years ahead of Mastercam for years.Mar 11, 6:16 am
2)> vinny wrote:

poor Vinny, I think he's in a better place now?
Well, yes I am. But I feel quoted out of context even though I don't remember typing that.
The last place I worked we were looking at upgrading from mastercam 9.1. We played with x1 for 3 months. The stuff was absolute junk. The interface ruined anything good about it. We eventually went back to 9.1. We looked at a lot of systems that went into solidworks, and for us those were the best way to go, for price and performance.
Now cimitron... I looked at the electrode manufacturing stuff, and I felt it wasn't quite there yet. (maybe 2-3 years ago)And for 15 grand and the fact we would of had to buy a new computer, and spend money and time on training I felt there was better ways to go. Now...that doesn't say cimitron sucks. It says a lot about the conditions of the system where I worked at the time. Now fast forward to where I am now. They bought NX2 when it first came out, to replace smartcam as a long term solution. They wanted to use the same stuff for design and machining, with a company thats going to be around for a while, considering smartcam just went belley up on them. UG has been around since the 60's, its been at los alomos, lockheed, cessna, etc... Plus they made the big decision to go 100%. The last place I worked lacked the leadership at the owner level to commit to such a thing.
Now that said, I'm sure cimmitron is just as good as UG. But I wouldn't recommend either of them to the last place I worked. I would suggest a system that runs inside of solidworks. Cheap, but the cad end would still kickass. Training would be extremely cheap since they already run solidworks. And no computer upgrades would need to be done.
As far as UG over cimitron? Doesn't matter. Where I work has UG, so now, that's the best damn system in the world to me. Considering it has Camax written all over it, it might just be the best?
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m>
No shit, I'm CCPing these in from the ongoing post. Damn I too have problems with memory.<g>

It's looking like ver9.XX was the last of the "Mowhekins" probably like IT13 is. All good shit goes away for cheaper/easier/more?? whatever.

I think its kinda the same way with Cimatron initial releases of Elete. Its hard to get the old die-hard IT users to switch. Specialliy if your happy/confident in g-code output & the splindles are running. Basicalily its a simple explination for Cimatron, but not with Mastercam. IT13 does just about everything I'll ever have to do,besides 5X stuff? so why upgrade/switch learn new? Its rock solid down & dirty get'er done shit! HTF can you beat that?????????(besides CAMEX- but thats another debate)
If I worked at a 5axis place(i did at one time- Fidia's running off of Delcam) I would look a little closer into Elete or UG. So for now I'll take your word on NX. I'm trusting you now man.... Don't fuck me up LOL!

Exactly- well said- conditions

Make due with what you have.

Its better in some ways, & worse in others- whats new?
Every body's heard of Mastercam,Smartcam,UG, even SurfCam&TekSoft around here, but not alot heard of cimmitron:-) Good thing we have (2) Joe's here to "Slain it to us Lucy" Oh sorry, I refer to it as IT13

They must be "newbies" maybe not to swift with technology- lots o places like that.

Pay now or pay latter- its very true with CAM systems. They can "make or break" places.

This is what truly amazes me till this day. IT13 will run on a 266mHz P4 with 1 gig ram. - slow but is is useable! Dont shade the part to much. It works! It dont crash! HTF do they do it?

Stay tuned - More to come!
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No shit, I'm CCPing these in from the ongoing post. Damn I too have problems with memory.<g>

It's looking like ver9.XX was the last of the "Mowhekins" probably like IT13 is. All good shit goes away for cheaper/easier/more?? whatever.

I think its kinda the same way with Cimatron initial releases of Elete. Its hard to get the old die-hard IT users to switch. Specialliy if your happy/confident in g-code output & the splindles are running. Basicalily its a simple explination for Cimatron, but not with Mastercam. IT13 does just about everything I'll ever have to do,besides 5X stuff? so why upgrade/switch learn new? Its rock solid down & dirty get'er done shit! HTF can you beat that?????????(besides CAMEX- but thats another debate)
If I worked at a 5axis place(i did at one time- Fidia's running off of Delcam) I would look a little closer into Elete or UG. So for now I'll take your word on NX. I'm trusting you now man.... Don't fuck me up LOL!

Exactly- well said- conditions

Make due with what you have.

Its better in some ways, & worse in others- whats new?
Every body's heard of Mastercam,Smartcam,UG, even SurfCam&TekSoft around here, but not alot heard of cimmitron:-) Good thing we have (2) Joe's here to "Slain it to us Lucy" Oh sorry, I refer to it as IT13

They must be "newbies" maybe not to swift with technology- lots o places like that.

Pay now or pay latter- its very true with CAM systems. They can "make or break" places.

This is what truly amazes me till this day. IT13 will run on a 266mHz P4 with 1 gig ram. - slow but is is useable! Dont shade the part to much. It works! It dont crash! HTF do they do it?

Check out 3dextreme.com he still uses CAMEX
*****
I emailed him, and your right he still usues camax. 10 year old version running on new hardware. He says he uses UG now but there's still things camax can do that UG can't.
Reminds me of cars built in the 60's.
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Course I'm right<g> I have run across some of the best in my travels, & he's one of'em. Some day when I grow up, I want to be like him :-) He did a heads up comparison of CAMAX vs IT13 a few years back. It was quite interesting. Needless to say IT13 lost & he keep on the SDRC-EDS- UG-NX path.
Old shit rulz! just like you said, cars that ran with freekin Autolite Carbs(Hollys for Fords) points, plugs condenser & had no polution B/S. All you needed if your car broke down was a swiss army knife & a business card. Now you better have a freekin computer diagnostic M/F'er with 47zillion freekin adapter plugs................. augh!................ My 24yr old is a Ford Service Tech- thank god!
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And every day it becomes more unlikely that yonnie will ever learn to drill a few holes <G>.
--
Cliff

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Holy schmokie Yonni? You mean Jonush? <ya-newsh> LOL
Can't blaim any one who does not want to drill holes.:-( Fuck I hate it! especially now in TI. That shit eats non-cobalt drills like melting butter in a microwave. Thats why they came out with gundrill machines & hole poppers(edm's) Those SOB's can drill a 1/32"hole thru hardened steel quicker than shit, & deep too! Drawbacks: not that accurate (must be TWEDM finished if necessary). Gundrilled KO pins! $sweeeeet!$- most mold shops wont pay for.
Ok here's a challenge: a spin off of "Where's Waldo" How many HOLDZEM ©®'s can you find in these 4 shots? http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Where 'sHOLDZEM1.jpg http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Where 'sHOLDZEM2.jpg http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Where 'sHOLDZEM3.jpg http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Where 'sHOLDZEM4.jpg
All pic's same only different camera angles.
This one has'em all: http://users.cin.net/~milgil/Where 'sHOLDZEM5.jpg
Maybe Janewsh can put some HOLDZEM's on his "work center" box holding? a sign? a saying? a big FU middle finger? Pic of Cliff?<g>
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He has enough problems with damp dreams.
--
Cliff

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Ok thats it, its now "official" From the desk of Kernel Cliff, from now on its Jonewsh.<ya-newsh> LOL JB & all the other common shmuck names too:-) Ya Jonewsh......... thats it. Ya gotta feel sorry for such a lost sole? Fuck he's bouncing off the 3D walls of the CAM/CAM world like a freekin wamo super ball! (loved those old balls) All ya can do is ??????
Sure doesn't seem like much relevant going on in this group lately.
anyone up for a 3D challenge?
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/3d.jpg
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/dxf_1.jpg
how long to model & progrom with your system - data supplied off DXF
--
Gil


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PV can write a 5 axes MDI macro for that in a few seconds <g>. yonnie will need to ask the MasterCAM guys, get a SW guy to model it & then ask where the holes are. Then claim it cannot be done ......
--
Cliff

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Ok truth is 1hr Solidworks , 1hr IT13, 1hr Hurco machine time.
I'm a turtle & very slow CNC guy.
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/3Dchallenge_TP.jpg
anyone like to try it?
piece-o-cake? right?
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CADDS IV with ASD package ~ 5 minutes tops. And most of that reading your stuff <g>. Faster with BREP kernel-based solids probably.
Symmetry is your friend & mine. Not jb's. It's too old-fashioned & APT-like for him, probably.
--
Cliff

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Hmmm intresting. If given the 2D dxf file & the print, would you use the CAD data to build the model? or just input the dim's off the hard copy?
I used both, double checking the math/geometry as I created the model. It definitely was a fooler for me. I too looked at it & said 10min tops. wrong! Damn Solidworks, it aint no Pro/E. (good thing) I had a bitch of a time making the 1/16ball cuts, till I figured out too "cut-away" more & "fill back in" Even the full ball fillets had to be "cheated" a few thou. Another SW trick. If it won't fillet with the proper size rad. try making the R. smaller till it will regen. It may be only a few tenths! to make work.
I could have done the whole thing in IT13 no problem. Working with solids & symmetry (every knows except Jonewsh) is much more productive, plus you get a "pretty" solid model for FEA/down stream work & exporting to the rest of the world(SW does make good exportable file formats)
Think its easy? Here's the 2d dxf file, if anyone wants to play.
http://users.cin.net/~milgil/3d-challenge.DXF or zip http://users.cin.net/~milgil/3d-challenge.zip
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You had a tolerance or round-off problem somewhere I suspect.
--
Cliff

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How'd you know tolerance or round-off problems are basicaly the story of my life!
tolerance: Like the DIN tolerance H5? or G??.(run for the shit house when that one's coming) How bout the brain sturgen dumb fuck tol of +.XXX +XXX -0.000 WTF? asshole. Dont you know how to add-subtract/2? then its a "normal people" tol. of +-. Can't tell ya how many times that tol. fucks people up.
round-off problems: Why the fuck can't anyone finish a block completely by breaking all edges & sharps? My solution: every thing thats in the CNC gets all outside edges chamfer milled - within reason of depth & access of standard 45deg tools. Ya its gonna take a few more minutes but end result is the pay- off. Any type of machined chamfer "catches the eye" as comparison to a hand filed or air tool ground edge. Your parts look good- they could be fucked up with the above mentioned tolerancing issues, but sometimes, just sometimes, that first look by the customer is all that counts.
oh wrong tolerance or round-off problems? shit.... sorry<g>
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