Are hybrids always HPR?

I agree with this, Shockie.
On one hand, you could argue that new model size hybrid rules belong in the HPR code, (as the proposed rules keeping HPR style minimum
distance, and age requirements). While on the other hand, you could argue that the new model size hybrid rules belong in the model rocket code for hybrids that fit the existing criteria of model rocket motors. This is up to the people in charge, and I am not one. ;)
If I had my way, the new model rocket sized hybrid rules would be proposed for the 1122 document.
Todd Moore Sky Ripper Systems.
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snipped-for-privacy@gtlakes.com wrote:

I thought Tripoli was "giving you your way".
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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damn todd, be careful, phil will accuse you of being CHEAP for wanting a free posting of those nfpa codes...
By the way the only nfpa document that applies to either model rocket or hpr motors is 1125.... 112 applies to model rocketry and 1127 applies to hp rocketry.. they took the relevant model rocket and high power rocket requirements out of 1122/1127 and consolidated all that in 1125.....Code for the Manufacture of Model and High power rocket Motors....
shockie B)

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Jerry,
Enough.
Post the existing rules that cover model rocket sized hybrid rocket motors.
I'm waiting.
Put up, or shut up please.
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snipped-for-privacy@gtlakes.com wrote:

They are not treated any differently than HPR and the rule myopically specified certain power levels.
Keep in mind to make "extra-1127" rockets of any kind, all you have to do is look for one of many arbitrary rules, exploit it, then you are not subject to the code.
But that is from bad codewriting.
And no or insufficient feedback and control loop on code problems for the past 10 years, from "field practice".
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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http://nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html
NAR says you must be level 2 to fly hybrids.
If that has changed, please cite the source and then notify the NAR webmaster to update the website.
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117
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There is a discrepency on that page.
The bulleted bit at the top of the page states level 2 is required to fly hybrids, however, Section 5, paragraph 1 specifies that hybrid technology may be used for level 1 certification.
Hopefully the detailed description is correct.
Kevin OClassen NAR 13578
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Fred,
Level 1 high power certification (160.01 to 640.00 Newton-seconds impulse)
1. The modeler must demonstrate his ability to build and fly a rocket containing at least one H or I impulse class motor. Cluster or staged models used for certification may not contain over 640.00 Newton seconds total impulse. Single use, reloadable, or hybrid technology motors are permitted. The modeler must assemble the reloadable motor, if used, in the presence of a certification team member.
http://nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html
Todd Moore Sky Ripper Systems.
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Looking a little further, it seems that HPR certification is required because hybrids are not "model rocket motors". ( http://nar.org/hpcert/NARhpdetails.html Section 1, para 4c) Doesn't specify what level of certification is required.
This little bit alone makes me suspect that hybrids can't be launched as LMRs, no matter total weight or propellant.
Kevin OClassen NAR 13578
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On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 18:25:00 GMT, "Kevin OClassen"

Not until the hybrid motor is certified as a "model rocket motor". But you may be able to fly without a LEUP or FAA waiver...
Alan

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news:0kbae.709703> This little bit alone makes me suspect that hybrids can't be launched as

Kevin, FAA notification does not care about nar or tra classifications.
you can fly a rocket on a H128 with FAA LMR notification.
the faa specs on LMR are their own, not NFPA's, NAR's or Tripoli's
to them, a LMR is under 3.3 pounds and 125g propellent. period.
rmr threads about this abound since it was created
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Including a totally uncertified, unclalssified motor too.

Or ATF, CPSC, EPA, NAR

And dozens of "experts" repeatedly miss the point and then attack posters who correct them.
This IS rmr.
Jerry
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Actually, you can fly an H128 with NO waiver or notification at all if you stay under 453g total mass.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society. --Stephen R. Covey
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On 22 Apr 2005 12:44:16 -0500, kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

I completely dissagree with the need for user certification. You can even get L2 certification and buy and fly hybrid motors without ever demonstrating that you have mastered the "complexity of hybrids". The main reason for HPR user certification is to provide the list to the Feds... But some hybrids do not need a LEUP, and small hybrid motors and thier users are of no interest to the Feds...

True, but they are also free of explosives.

Ya well, there's lots 'o regs that needs fixin.
Alan

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The only basis for it is NAR/TRA centric. That alone makes it a bad idea in light of authority overstep tendencies.
NAR/TRA should have a minimalist and exemption tactic. Jerry told you so (perhaps precisely why they do not do it??). NOT a regulation tactic.
But then they have not been historically very intelligent.
TRA membership is on a downslope and NAR is level and has been for over a decade. And their supporters are aging armchair rocketeers.
Neither org likes kids. If you read their regs.
NAR fakes it in public to a limited degree.
Jerry

Point. NAR and TRA wrote that rule (over the objections of some folks in the room). Thank them while on your knees and move on.

None of which are getting fixed.
Note that well.

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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Poor jerry.
Always ignored.
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I wasn't aware that the NAR or TRA provide their membership lists, certified user lists, or any thing else "to the feds". And if they ever did, at least without a search warrant, they'd get quite an earful from me and plenty of others.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
People who exercise their embryonic freedom day after day, little by little, expand that freedom. People who do not will find that it withers until they are literally "being lived." They are acting out scripts written by parents, associates, and society. --Stephen R. Covey
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

They publshed their membership lists in public for years. They called it the yellow pages. They published an accompanying certified user list and sent those lists to motor vendors such as myself.
Jerry

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I'm still surprised that the owners of the trademark never hit them with a cease and desist order over that.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in and the West in general into an unbearable hell and a choking life."
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damn Bob, were have you been? from NFPA 1127:
5.3 Maintenance of Sales Records. 5.3.1 High power rocket motor manufacturers, distributors, and sellers shall maintain a list of those certified users to
whom they have sold high power rocket motors or motor reloading kits that includes the following information:
(1) Name and address of the purchaser
(2) Name and address of the national user organization that has certified the user
(3) Type and number of high power solid-propellant rocket motors or motor reloading kits sold to the certified user
(4) Date of sale and shipment of high power rocket motors or motor reloading kits to the certified user
5.3.2 The manufacturer, distributor, or seller shall make available, on request, the records specified in 5.3.1 to any law
enforcement person or the authority having jurisdiction.
5.3.3 The records specified in 5.3.1 shall be kept for 5 years from the date of sale.
5.4 User Certification Provisions.
5.4.2 The certifying organization shall maintain a list of all persons it has certified as high power rocket motor users.
5.4.2.1 The list of certified users shall be updated not less than once every 30 days.
5.4.2.2 Upon request and receipt of applicable fees, if any, confirmation of an active member's user certification shall be
provided to the following:
(1) Law enforcement official or authority having jurisdiction
(2) Manufacturer of high power rocket motors and motor reload kits
(3) Retailer licensed to sell, distribute, or offer for sale high power rocket motors and motor reloading kits
solid- or hybrid-propellant high power rocket motor with any material once the motor has been operated, or
reloading of any reloadable, solid- or hybrid-propellant high power rocket motor with any material or by any
means not specifically certified the purpose of user certification
shockie B)
writes:

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