OT-kinda, but not really...The Last Straw

You mean you do not "trust the government" to do the right thing even though they have the legal sanction to violate your rights without recourse? They wouldn't abuse it would they?

You mean you do not "trust the BATFE/FBI agents" to do the right thing even though they have the legal sanction to violate your rights without recourse? They wouldn't abuse it would they?

Jerry

How does one become acitizen of a FREE country?

Dunno... last time anyone tried anything like that that seemed to have any staying power, it kind of petered out within a couple of hundred years or so... I guess it's one of those jobs (like washing the floor) that doesn't stay done forever. (Musta been what they meant by "eternal vigilance the price of liberty" and all of that...)

Anybody remember what we did with that mop and bucket? I know we had one around here somewhere!

-dave w

Well, go to the Dept. of (In)Justice website and read the first line of the first paragraph.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

- Benjamin Franklin

Consider the tradeoffs between liberty and security. Consider that the terrorists WANT discontent towards the government. Consider that additional security will require more limitations on freedoms, hence more social discontent.

The terrorists are COUNTING upon the government to respond in the way it is. Generating fear and discontent is PRECISELY the aim of terrorism. Congress' response in imposing upon citizen rights and liberty is EXACTLY what the terrorists want; social change through threats of violence. The terrorists have succeeded in getting the government to impose upon its citizens and to limit the fundamental ideals and principles of our society. They have got us to trade liberty for safety. The terrorists are more aware of the foundations upon which a free society is built than is Congress, or the public.

Sad. Very sad, indeed. The Dept. of Justice(sic) is advocating and promoting safety over freedom. Where will it end?

"Boomer" wrote in news:bpvuo8$1t6r93$1@ID-

It sure does, it flips everything I learned in high school government upside down. And they are doing it all in the name of "National Security". I think that our national security is, has, and will continue to be compromised by those that are entrusted to protect it. They are looking a hell of a lot more like the KGB than an agency of law.

Edgar already said it and was quoted in the article:

Timothy Edgar, legislative counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union, decried the expansion of an executive power that is not subject to judicial oversight.

"The more that checks and balances against government abuse are eroded, the greater that abuse," Edgar said. "We're going to regret these initiatives down the road."

"They had no idea this was coming," Edgar said. "This is going to help to continue to expand the list of people and organizations that are asking questions about civil liberties and Patriot Act powers."

I would like to be doing a lot more than asking questions about this. My question is what is one do at this point; grab a soap box and start raving down at the corner, after you get your demonstration permit of course? This is my last straw, and I am going to try to get something done even if it is just writing letters and asking questions.

My better half lost her twin sister in the world trade center, and even she thinks this is an unprecedented showing of government incompetence. Where _ARE_ the checks and balances with this system they are tinkering with, and what can we do about it?

this is not new.

Exactly. The words of FDR are more powerful today than they were in 1941. We truly have nothing to fear except fear itself Fear is what will allow the forces that have hidden agendas to destroy that which stands in their way. When will it end? Sadly, things have to get worse before they get better. How much worse? It's enough to keep me awake at night.

Paul

tater,

You missed the point. No, being held without a trial is not new, but how they put you there is. Before, they were required to deal with the checks and balances of having a judge approve their actions. Now, they aren't required to. All they do is throw together a letter stating suspicion, take it to any business/institution, collect whatever they want for data, and toss you away forever based on their "hunch." No proof required.

Hey. It's handy!

Police are lazy and we do not want them to have to work too hard.

Jerry

You will find I have been posting this to rmr YEARS before 9-11.

Jerry

I read a book a while ago, and this quote keeps coming back to me whenever I read about the not so patriot act.

"'There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. When there aren't enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ... Create a nation of law-breakers, and then you cash in on the guilt.'"

-- Ayn Rand "Atlas Shrugged"

Actuallly I have found this to be quite the opposite. Most Local Law Enforcement I have talked to a few (6 or so) and they think this is a bunch of crap. The prob lies on the federal level which is not too surprising considering the GOD complex most of them have.

this is a profound observation

- iz

Gary wrote:

when I was 17 that book, along with many of her others, changed my life and empowered me to realize my own individuality, despite a being raised by a dominating father and a similarly engineered religion

it should be required reading for late adolescents

- iz

ASW wrote:

try again. actually, they dont even need a letter. I know, first hand.

What planet do you live on? Checks and balances - duh! 1.) The Federal Supreme Court makes decision that it has absolutely no Constitutional authority to make. 2.) CPS can remove children at will. Parents are never charged with a crime and are denied their rights. Millions are traumatized by CPS who inflates there numbers (ex. three neighbor calls CPS reporting hearing child cry too long. CPS investigates and finds nothing. Statistics show that there were three cases of abuse. The parents are on the CPS data base and if another call comes can be in serious trouble. 3.) Rent Control in California, New York, and elsewhere can take over an owners property forcing him/her into bankruptcy (ex. tenants state the building needs repair and withhold rent until repairs made. Owners repairs and the tenants move and do not pay the back rent. Owner can not raise rent for new tenants and the repairs are amortized such that he/she never received 100%. Result - owner goes bankrupt). A owner in S.F. repaired apartment building after earthquake. Rent Control refused to allow owner to charge tenants stating repairs were decorative in nature. 4.) Many, charges against men and women involving sex treat the charged as guilty. They loose their jobs, pay, often their children go broke and after proved innocent take years to rebuild their lives. 5.) Small business people are forced to pay fees, extra taxes to support programs setup by the state, give maternity leave to men and women (even if it causes severe financial difficulties), told what color mix they must have, are subject to a stream of lawsuits designed to empower the employee to the point that charges are just another form of extortion the owner is forced to bear to do business. 6.) Cities can impose laws that in essence force home owners into slavery. Buy a home and give up your right not to be forced into doing free labor. Owners get to shovel snow off of the sidewalk owned by the city because it is in front of their property. Owners get no financial compensation for this labor making it slave labor. Tenants never have to shovel snow. Only owners of property. The Constitution makes no distinction between owners and tenants. Yet, owners are forced to do public service. 7) NARCS can break down you door and enter your house on a tip and you can't do a thing about it. 8.)Men have been forced into bankruptcy because of errors that the government refuses to address. Ex., man moved into California and three months later had his income garnished. His name was the same as a man convicted of being late in child support payments a year earlier who failed to show up for the trial. The man who had nothing to do the case was blamed for not answering the summons which was not for him and which he could not get because he hadn't moved into California until 9 months later. He was destroyed financially. This happens to thousands every year. 9.) Three people getting together and forming a club or just firsts can be arrested and tried under the Rico Act if the government so chooses.

Your so called "check and balances" are non existent. Your are blowing smoke up everyone's ass suggesting there is such a thing in place. Your only problem is that it is now happening to you. Boo hoo! Ask me if I give a damn. Join the club! You idiots really didn't think it could happen to you. Surprise!

"Chuck Rudy" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@tradenet.nospam.net...

These days it seems more like the "United State of Emergency" - before long, kids are gonna be growin' up thinking that's actually the name of the country.

-dave w

It only takes ONE bad law plus ONE bad cop. And I wish we only had one of each.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I liked The Fountainhead, myself.

Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers