Any lawyers on the list?

I am not a lawyer, but I have hired plenty of them and I can tell you what the best advice on this would be. A $1200 case is far too small for actual litigation, and certainly not in a distant state. A "love letter" from your lawyer might work, but not likely. Small claims might work but it is too far away and it will cost you more in stomach lining than you will recover. You can earn new money faster than you can recover this lost money. So you have to write this off and get on with your life.

See my tale of being an eBay fraud victim:

Sounds like you already got the small eBay "buyer protection" settlement.

How did you pay them.... check or credit card.

I presume you are aware that most charge cards will give you financial relief and charge the amount back to the vendor.

Good Luck

What is the seller's home state? Some states have consumer protection agencies, sometimes under the state's Attorney General. If the seller has a history of deception, a consumer protection agency may be interested.

Eventually, some lawyer will figure out a way to make a buck or two from eBay fraud. He could sell his service on eBay, with a reserve, hire another paralegal or two....

But he would need to be licensed to practice in the seller's home state, more than likely. I've considered actions a couple of times after being screwed by eBay sellers. Winning a judgment would be a piece of cake. Collecting is always a killer.

Dale Scroggins, Esq. (Ret.) (Aren't there any other lawyers here?)

Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, especially those of you that chose to contact me on the side. I had already filed a complaint through the AG's office in Washington, to which the seller responded how he had done nothing wrong and how rude we were to dispute his non-disclosure. He went on to blow his horn about the perfect record he has with the BBB in Florida. Not anymore, he doesn't! And thanks for the idea, Michael Myers of Myers Fine Arts. For those of you that are inclined to bid on art and other offerings on eBay, be careful of his listings. He appears to be able to not disclose those little things that can kill value, leaving the buyer in a poor position. As soon as we get past this complaint, assuming he doesn't do the right thing and make a proper settlement, our next move will be to file fraud charges against him through the USPS.

This guy is going to earn every dime of the money we've lost. We fully intend to see to it. It's not wise to mess with a guy that has nothing better to do with his time than to make you sorry for screwing with him! Then when the smoke clears and the dust settles, we will still have filing a claim in court in reserve. Unlike Al Babin, this guy has a store, so it's pretty easy to screw with him. As long as he's on eBay, we'll find him. If he changes names, we'll find him. We look at the same things he sells, so it will be no problem. We'll keep the bidders well advised about his dirty practices. All we have to do is send a small picture of the repaired portion of the vase and a copy of their email telling us it has no problems. We'll do our best to put him out of business by telling the truth.

Beyond that, we have a novel idea on how to expose him to almost everyone that will be looking at his listings, and it will be perfectly legal. We'll be sure to let you know when it's happening. I think you'll enjoy it! Could prove costly for him, considering it will coincide with any of his future listings, time and again, so each and every auction is accompanied by a refresher for his prospective buyers about his potential for non-disclosure. Any of us that have ever sold on eBay realize that if only a few look and bid, you generally have to settle for a much lower price for your goods. You be sure to enjoy those stolen dollars, Michael.

Harold

You might consider placing liens on any real property ( house, car, bussines, Etc. ) it will cost you little or nothing to file and he will have to settle with you when he wants to sell any major asset or hire a lawer to vacate the lien which will cost him money either way. In addition liens can show up on credit reports and be a big problem for him if he ever needs credit.

Best Regards Tom.

All very true. Have you tried Judge Judy, she can handle up to $5000 and the case might make good TV.

[ Woe snipped ]

Might be worth reposting this on alt.marketing.online.ebay, Harold.

Especially if your "idea" works.

"Hell hath no fury..." I can hardly wait to hear about your revenge, and you have my best wishes. Nothing I hate worse than a con. Get'im! Keep us informed, it will help us all deal with unscrupulous people.

Another approach is contact the postmaster in his state. If the mails were used at any point, this would be mail fraud. Those folks are relentless - it may take several months but the mills of the gods grind exceeding fine.

We even had the postal service follow up after the first letter to them. The vendor (non-ebay related) had still not resolved the matter so when the second go-around happened it must have been much more unpleasant for them as they ponied up straight away.

Keep *all* your correspondence, do it all by mail, and send the stuff to your seller 'return recipt requested.'

Jim

================================================== please reply to: JRR(zero) at yktvmv (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com ==================================================

It would be interesting to me to see what, if any, real actions can be taken that provide any fruits.

I had a related experience with an outfit called "cyclone motors" for my CNC mill/drill project. I have finally received most of the equipment, literally all that he can deliver, and have to leave it at that.

My neighbor's situation is on topic as well. He purchased some furniture from Pinecraft here in St. Louis Park, as he and I both believe in trying to give the local business the shot. Paid for up front. Never delivered. This was approximately a year ago. He went to court, won a judgement. Done deal? Hardly. This guy knows how to play. He's even been featured on the local TV channel 5 Investigates. Another lady, with the same sad story. He gave the same song and dance, some bull about "minimum orders". It was never clear, even after promises on TV that he came through for her, and definately has not come through with my good friend & neighbor. Once the judgement was handed down, you have to fill out forms of discovery (where does he bank?) of course it's an empty account. He can have the sheriff's office sieze his car, but it will cost $500 to do that, that might be recoverable. He can have the sheriff come in and sieze the cash drawer, but how much will be in the till? Frankly, I'd rather picket the guy.

It just seems a shame that the real, true & clear victims have no real recourse. Something is broken.

Best of luck.

You're nuts. Forget lawyers! The only satifaction you could possibly get is to know that they went through more pain than you would, and that would only be true if you were rich. You'll never get a penny back, in most cases like this, if you involve lawyers. The fees would add up to many thousands of $ to prosecute a case like this.

Did you send payment through the mails? If so, get on the USPS web site

go to the inspectors web page and download and print the mail fraud complaint form. Fill it out explaining as clearly as possible what the fraudulent acts were, when you sent payment, etc., and send it in. You will get some response fairly quickly telling you that an investigation is in progress, and then you may actually have a pleasant surprise in the mail. The inspectors have one great big atom bomb at their disposal, which is a denial of mail service! (Well, in really egregious cases of multiple fraud, they can also arrest and prosecute the perps, but that won't apply unless these guys do it on a massive scale.) But, any seller who lives by checks coming in the mail absolutely goes white when they talk about shutting down their ability to receive mail! Scum like this often will only accept money orders, and if a USPS MO was used, then the post office has their signature on record somewhere, which also helps the investigation. Give the MO serial # in the complaint.

If you sent payment through a credit card, you can make a complaint, and may be able to get the charge reversed.

Be sure to download and print out any auction pages from eBay before they disappear, to document what they represented the item as.

Jon

I hate to just jump on your misery, but why on earth are you buying art glass on ebay?!!

The slightest chip or scratch can completely trash the value. You have to be able to personally eyeball that stuff, to come up with a price. Even if the seller isn't a scumbag, it would be really easy to get screwed.

This has long been one of the areas, that I felt ebay was the worst choice for shopping.

Paul K. Dickman

Be sure to post your experiences on the newsgroup a.m.o.ebay

Richard,

Many thanks for your primer on ebay etiquette and procedure. It should be required reading for all those doing business on ebay. Of course, it won't do any real good for those that need it most. Hucksters will continue huckstering and suckers will continue sucking at the tap of "too good to be true".

I am very sorry to hear that such nice people as Harold and his bride were taken in by ebay fraud. We may all profit from Harold's bitter experience, though. I suspect he will hang on with the ferocity of a bull dog until vindication is his. Hopefully, the slime-ball that conned Harold will eventually rue the day and maybe there will be lesson is good business practices for almight ebay.

Bob Sw>

Drop it and get on with your life. There is no economic reason for you to pursue this. Old money vs new.

And all this over ART GLASS? Puh-leeze. Your extravagant and non- productive hobby does not deserve anyone's attention or sympathy. The AG, the courts, even the despicable BBB, have better quarrels to attend to. Indeed, this kind of game is what makes these hobbies what they are, full of intrigue and double-dealing, yielding rich possibilities of that big killer trade someday. Admit it, you got taken in this scheme because you were after a profit on something with no utility other than selling it to the next bigger sucker.

Reminds me of those people who whine and complain about getting a bad deal on a cruise. No sympathy from me for money spent (or stolen) on such self- indulgence.

You didn't lose money, you lost a crummy piece of glass.

No problem, Paul. Susan buys art glass from eBay because it is a source for an otherwise scarcely available commodity. We almost never travel, so she has almost no opportunity to see or buy things otherwise. Both of us recognize the risk, and to quite honest, up until this issue, she's had relatively good results. Two scary previous experiences that were readily settled by the sellers, one even demanded returning our shipping fees. Not all people, we've found, are crooks. Some make a mistake and are willing to settle immediately.

Absolutely true! A fact apparently not lost on the seller in our instance. A non-disclosure of the repair when asked, then an acknowledgment of it after we had paid for and received the item, but it magically becomes an inclusion, which they felt need not be reported, and was carefully avoided in their description and the photos, tells me they know it, too. Their business, Myers Fine Arts, in Saint Petersburg, Florida, is a store front, and up until we gave them their first negative report on eBay, you'd think they were upfront and honest. Michael Myers and Mary Dowd. Names you should all keep near if you have any interest in art, art glass, or collectibles. If they'll screw us, they'll screw anyone. Susan did nothing to provoke them, all she did was ask condition, then bid on their wares based on the strength of the false report of condition from Mary.

We're coming to terms with the idea that it might be a great place to visit and learn, but perhaps not so good for buying. Honest people that sell their wares on eBay should demand that people such as this are booted off eBay. In my opinion, only one screw up that is not fairly settled, and they're gone. They screw it up for the reputable dealers. That's the price honest dealers will pay, not having people like us willing to bid on their wares. In some small way I blame eBay for the failure to achieve proper settlement, too. They were quick to award Susan the $175, but because the seller lists large volumes, they will quickly recover their loss, and they are free to continue their practice of non-disclosure. How nice it would have been if eBay would have taken the position that as long as they are not satisfying the buyer when a legitimate complaint such as ours is voiced, they are forbidden to list or sell anything more. It not only would get them honest, but keep them honest, too. It's all about money, to hell with ethics.

Thanks for your comments, Paul.

You've missed one point here, Richard. This is NOT just about art glass. This is also about a deadly honest hard working woman that stands by her husband, has brought him 27 years of happiness after having spent the first

14 years of his life with a woman that was more interested in showing her ass to strangers than keeping it home where it belonged. This woman, that has no source of income because she has chosen to stay home and be the good wife I had hoped she would be, just got screwed out of what, to her, is a considerable amount of money. This was HER money, not mine. I see to it that she has money she can use for her hobby, one that is honest and honorable. She doesn't suck it up her nose, nor stick it in her veins.

Your extravagant and non-

She is appalled at your disdain for her choice in things that hold her interest. You screwed up big time in this case. She would have been the person the showed an interest in you, your hobbies, what ever they may be, and have an interest in your well being. She is having a hard time understanding your position. What makes your interests more important than hers?

Sorry, I'll admit no such thing. Susan has NEVER sold one piece of art glass. She collects because she enjoys it, and studies far more than she buys. In some cases she has clearly paid a little more for an item than it might be worth, but her reasons for buying have never been for profit. The best we can hope for is that should the day come that she must liquidate a few pieces, that she would recover her investment. She collects with the idea that her enjoyment is her profit. Shame on you for your negative, judgmental attitude.

I assume you'd feel the same way if a deal in which you had a real interest had a similar outcome? If you bought, for example, a lathe that was represented as new, but came to you a rusted piece of junk, it's just a crummy lathe?

Frankly, I'm surprised at you, Richard. This is about unscrupulous people screwing other people, not about art glass. I gather from your comments that it would matter only if it involved you and your interests. Shame on you.

Harold

Jon Elson wrote: The inspectors have one great big atom bomb at their disposal, which

What you say seems encouraging, but just how hard would it be for the scumbag to start using a post office box at a place like Mailboxes Etc., or just have a buddy open a USPS post office box and hand him the key?

Jeff

Want to share more information for us in WA state? Business name and address?

I can see it now: A local WA state resident with a very curious wife in tow goes into said establishment to learn about "art glass". In the middle of a conversation with store owner and with a store full of patrons, he says in a rather loud voice "I hear that you like to swindle people on eBay. Do you do that here in your store too?"

Just an idea. I know there are several Washingtonians that are regulars here.

Lane