Any lawyers on the list?

A good agent would have switched him before, not after, they lost their license.

I once had a partner who was a lawyer... Many times he told me... "the courts expect you to mitigate your losses"... If you go to small claims court, I would expect the Judge to tell you... "Mr Harold, your claim should be for $50, the amount of the freight.... you should have taken the refund, minimized your loss to $50 and if you felt it necessary, file the claim for that amount".... Pat Landy

On Sun, 9 May 2004 20:15:37 -0400, "Pat" shouted from the rooftop:

Pat, you just joined the Harold Hates You For Being Logical Club.

Expect to be sued shortly.

-Carl "An honest man doesn't need a long memory"- Jesse Ventura

But then again Mr. Harold could reply to the judge:

"Your honor, the seller substantially mis-represented the item. It was as though he told me it was a horse, and he sent me a cow. I would like to be made whole again - as if the transaction had *never* *happened* at all. Because the contract that was agreed upon (I pay for a horse, and he sent me a cow) was null and void.

Part making Mr. Harold whole again means he gets the purchase price back, and gives the goods to the seller, in *exactly* the same condition they were sent. If the transaction had never happened, Mr. Harold would not have spent any money on shipping items back and forth. If I were the judge, I would therefore reward him a complete refund, including his original shipping costs, and require the seller to pay for

That effectively "undoes" the deal from the purchasers standpoint.

Jim

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Wrong again, carl. No wonder so many have plonked you.

Actually, what Pat has to say is correct, and we may very well have done that. Hard to say, we lost the opportunity immediately because the seller had no intentions of taking the vase back. He seized the first opportunity to withdraw the offer. NO decent business person would have done that. The short cut you're taking through the facts is that the option to return the vase in question was withdrawn the moment we didn't agree that the reason for the return was not a flaw inherent with the manufacture of the vase. In other words, they lied, then when we didn't agree with the basis for their lie, we were not entitled to a return. Any return, at any time, for any amount. You're a real boor, carl. Your opinions are worth what we've paid for them.. Lets say that I won't be reading any more of your worthless childish comments in the future. You be sure to have a good day. I know I will.

Harold

That's all we ever asked for, right from the beginning. We may never see proper resolution to this matter, but I thank you for understanding that which we have tried, apparently in vain, to have others see. We'd have had no contest, nor desire to return it, if the item was as represented. It is, in collecting terms, a beautiful piece. It just isn't worth the price they extracted by being dishonest and not disclosing the repaired condition.

Thanks, Jim.

Harold

Yup, Back in the 80's I worked as a Harley - Davidson mechanic at my brothers motorcycle shop. Every 3 months or so he would accumulate enough bad debt that he would take everyone that had failed to pay their bill to small claims court. Being the owner and the mechanic, we were the "star" witnesses (the only witnesses), and I was constantly amazed at the common sense and the high level of perception (or B.S. detectorability) displayed by the small claims court judges after hearing only a very few minutes of opposing testimony. We never lost one, and it was always a "he said vs. she said" situation, only we usually had an invoice with appropriate notation hand written by one of us about the condition of the motorcycle, signed by the owner. It significantly bolstered my confidence in the American system of justice. I hope Mr. Harold gets to stand on the court house steps and say, as we often did, "Naa Naa Naa NaNa, you lost!" We used to take the proceeds and make a trip to the best steak house within several hundred miles, North Star, in Topeka, Kansas, and enjoy a very very fine meal!

JTMcC.

Thanks, JTMcC.

Susan and I both appreciate your understanding. Nothing would please me more than to have a judge hear this thing, especially the part where the seller felt he had no responsibility to disclose the repair, which, for all practical purposes, destroyed the value of the vase. Could be a step standing proposition. ;-)

Harold

Thanks, Tom.

Yeah, we have that in mind, but I don't think that is possible without a judgment. We're going to file fraud charges through the post office this week, so we're certainly working that direction. If we can get a ruling from the post office, it might make it easy to get a civil conviction. That's sort of the plan, but so many seem to think we're nuts. What the hell has become of honesty and decency in our world?

Harold

Under what law? "As is" applies when it applies, casual or not. Lots of credit card sales are made casually.

You should also call 911 and report them. This is called "being a crank": making a criminal complaint out of a civil dispute (and a silly one at that). The criminal authorities don't like cranks.

Better yet, file your complaint right now! Here:

Read this:

Unfortunatley moral values are rapidly being replaced with monitary values based on a system of winners and losers without regard to future consiquenses.

Tom.

But *many* merchants will give you a discount if you pay cash. In effect, they've simply raised their posted prices to include the cost of credit card processing, and then discount the posted price if you don't use a credit card to pay. I always ask for a 3 to 4% discount for paying cash. I usually get it.

Gary

Be sure you read through what constitutes fraud at the link you provided. Not receiving that which was advertised is top of the list, so to speak. Don't kid yourself into believing they don't care. The only thing that they caution is that they may not react to a single complaint. Others have had outstanding results. In no way do they consider such things as crank complaints. Can't imagine where you got your information. Got mine off the site.

Harold

Sigh. Very heavy sigh.

Yep, I'm afraid Susan and I must fully agree.

Harold

My completely unqualified 2c worth - that is a noticeable defect, and definitely should have been mentioned in the description. Get the small claims court onto them, although in my experience, some of the judgements can be screwy. I had a similar case with a car painter many years ago. Bowling up with the court summons got their attention quickly, however, it doesn't always work. My ex-boss was rippred off by some painter ($12k worth) and got screwed by the courts in a cut-and dried case. Geoff

On Sun, 9 May 2004 19:07:50 -0700, "Harold & Susan Vordos" shouted from the rooftop:

Oddly enough, it's also what I said some five days ago:

"Your defense is weak because the seller did offer to refund your money and you refused. You screwed up and made a cheap lesson into an expensive one."

I'm repeating myself here, but it's worth it:

Have you even talked to an attorney instead of a NG? No? Why not? If you're serious, then get that checkbook out and start spending the retirement fund. Your first non-refundable check will probably equal the cost of the glassware. Have fun and keep us posted on how much of a financial drain this whole sorry mess is.

-Carl "An honest man doesn't need a long memory"- Jesse Ventura

This only serves to reinforce the idea in my mind that it's a tough life being a motorcycle dealership owner. Aside from the thin margins, folks what don't pay their bills can really put a crimp in your business.

Oddly, the few encounters with the criminal justice system in the US leaves me with pretty much the same impression. It's odd and creaky but it works very, very well.

Now *that*'s an incentive!

Jim

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Probably coincides with the decline in spelling, grammar, and puctuation.