Korean War Era MiG-15 Colors

"Gray Ghost" wrote

Cookie can provide some excellent info, but one thing I recall from the more recent Russian publications on the MiG-15 is that they weren't natural metal at all, but a silver/aluminum corrosion resisting paint.

KL

The red ones are the Russian demonstration group, like the US Thunderbirds. Just on the history channel today, Michoyan was playing billiards with some gents from Rolls Royce. He lost the first game, and challenged for the second, "If I win, you sell me your Nene engine." Sheesh! And to discover the mettalurgy of the blades one of MiG's engineers wore crepe soles whilst visiting the factory and picked up enough particles from around the machines to "reverse engineer." Thanks for the cold war RR. Cheers,

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

A great story - but if you are learning history from the 'History Channel' then I suggest you look elsewhere.

Just think about it....

Mikoyan was not an engine builder, he was an airframe designer. I don't know for sure, but I doubt he visited the UK. Rolls Royce would not be in a position to sell their engines - it was a government to government thing. The Soviets were our allies at the time of the sale - the Cold War started later.

While it is true that the UK Labour government sold the Rolls Royce Nene to the USSR, the story about games of billiards should be taken with a pinch of salt.

The 'sticky soles' story has some basis in truth however, but what they got out of the resultant iron filings is open to question.

Ken

Thanks for the heads up. I've heard the crepe soles story elsewhere but this is the first I've heard about the billiard game. More research is in order.

What is the name of the Russian's demo team? tia,

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

They didn't have names in those days - just some intructors forming a team to display at various airshows around the USSR.

The Soviet public are very air-minded and attendances at shows like Tushino and Domodedovo in Moscow were always packed houses.

They still go in their thousands to todays shows at Zhukovsky.

There were a few MiG-15 teams - in 3, 5 and even 9-ship formations. The red-painted ones were from the 234th Guards fighter regiment based at Kubinka, near Moscow. They were a training outfit and aerobatics was part of that training. They evolved into a demonstration team - for the Soviet public and visiting foreign dignitaries.

Todays Russian Knights and Swifts aerobatic teams are their direct descendants.

If you want to know more, there is a great book by Nikolai Valuyev called 'Autographs in the Sky'.

It was published in Moscow in 2001 and is in both Russian and English.

It charts the history of Russian & Soviet aerobatic flying - from Nesterov (who performed the first loop on 27 August 1913) through the pre-Soviet Czarist days, right up to todays teams.

It includes photos of the MiG-15/17/21 teams - all of them painted in various styles of red paint.

Lots of B&W & colour photos, colour artwork, 351 pages - ISBN is 5-94495-001-3

Ken

The ones painted half red were, I believe, the Soviet air demo team aircraft. I believe there were camo-painted MiG-15s (most of those were flown by the Soviet pilots). I speak semi-frequently with COLs (ret) Ralph Parr and Hal Fischer in the course of my duties (though I haven't spoken with COL Parr in a while since he's been recovering from a fall). As a matter of fact, COL Fischer is the one who sponsored me for membership in American Legion China Post 1. China Post 1 has a great and lengthy history. In order to become a member, one must be recommended by a current member. It was a great honor it is to be recommended by Hal Fischer for membership in the American Legion Post that was basically founded by Claire Chennault in China).

Oops, sorry to meander off the point. Anyway, next time I speak with either of them I will ask if they remembered any camo-painted MiG-15s. If I get any info, I will post it here.

-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon

My home page:

Recommend you take a look at

(Eagle productions)They carry several decal sheets on the Mig-15 in different scales (most out of production do) there are some really nice camo scenes

Hope it helps

Max

The short version is that the initial aircraft were covered in a silver lacquer finish and flew in that form with only DPRK wing markings and numbers. Later, color swatches and stripes were added to provide aerial identification of units.

For example, Col Pepelyayev was the commander of the 196th IAP, 324th IAD. He flew a MiG with bort number ("buzz code" for all practical purposes) 325 and a red nose surround.

Later, when the aircraft were rebuilt or replaced they went to a very unpopular Soviet version of "air superiority grey." This was replaced after about six months with a tricolor green/tan/brown over light blue green.

Night fighters (there were usually less than 25 of these) did eventually go to some varuation of black undersides or occasionally black overall.

The main thing to remember is that when you change both the finish and the quality of finish it affects the aircraft's speed and handling. A coat of flat paint on an F-86 cut its top speed by 20 knots and also messed with climb and other qualities. The Soviets had the same problems on their end.

Cookie Sewell

FWIW My Cousin talked about MIGs that were the aluminum but with light blue on the undersurfaces. The blue was too light though, at high altitudes they stuck out quite clearly. Late in the war they got some with uppersurface colors in green and brown mottling. If they were below you, this worked rather well. The MIGs adopted a system of sending "trains" out with the leading elements high, and each succeeding element stacked lower and behind. If you jumped the high element the following elements used their excellent climb to come up your tail. This was helped because of the effective camo. This only worked on clear days though. If there were clouds, the darker colored MIGs stood out quite clearly.

Bill Shuey Bill Shuey

For a slightly more authoritative account, you could try going to:

And ask nicely if you can buy a copy of the Rolls-Royce Heritage Trust's Historical Series Number 33, "Early Russian Jet Engines, the Nene and Derwent in the Soviet Union, and the evolution of the VK-1" ISBN 1 872922 25

2 (It hasn't turned up on the list of publications on the website yet).

According to the book, Klimov was the man with the soft soled shoes. His fellow visitor, Kishkin, a metallurgist, simply pocketed a turbine blade when the opportunity arose.

According to the book, Artyom Mikoyan did visit, in December 1946; indeed the book has a copy of the page from the site visitors book from the Soviet delegation's visit.

I think it was up to the government to approve the export licence, after that it was up to the company to make the sale. And it was presumably seen as a sale just like all the others; the Soviet Union was apparently seen as a good market for jet engines (as indeed it was, just not for engines manufactured by them).

Jon.

"William H. Shuey" wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@starpower.net:

Thanks guys, the Aeromaster site was the ticket. I pulled out my old 1/100 Tamiya F-86/MiG-15 combo and I thought NM chasing NM would be boring.

Thanks! The Russian Knights were what I was trying to remember but since they didn't use the name in reference to the Migs I'll have to include that. Cheers,

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

Just today I bought the Trumpeter 1/48 scale MiG-15 and it has markings included with the kit for a Korean marked aircraft of the Chinese Peoples Volunteers in simber (NMF, silver paint??) and another in green/brown/underside blue camo with Soviet stars but indicating it saw action in the "Corean" War.

-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon

My home page:

Well, if I'm not wrong, most NM MiGs were in fact covered with a laquer to protect the airframe, so the effect was a slightly dull look, also the airbrakes and the plate under the nose (close to the cannons) was stainless steel (so more shiny).

There were indeed some camouflaged MiGs, most of them with chinese insigna (and usually flown by Soviet pilots). There's a book from ACE publications (in polish but with english captions) with some profiles for Korean war MiGs and If I'm not wrong there are some decal sheets from Cutting Edge for Koren war MiGs (both NM and camouflaged ones).

Hope this helps.

P.S. About the Rolls Royce Nene, I think it was a direct sale from the British Labour Government to Soviet Union (along with other engines, such as the Derwent if I'm not wrong).

If I may quote myself (from rec.aviation.military, thread title Imperial War Museum Duxford, Jan 2004))

Ref: Air Enthusiast, July/August 2001; "Turbojets for Stalin" by Tony Buttler.

He says he used newly-released official papers to shed light on the affair. To summarise the 5-page article:

The Soviet Union placed an order with Rolls for ten Nene and ten Derwent engines in July 1946. Lord Hives (for R-R) wrote to Cripps (President of the Board of Trade) asking for approval - "We hope that politics will not prevent us from executing this order".

Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!

Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted the export license. The engines were not on the Secret list, which seems to have been important. The delivery was begun in January 1947 at a rate of four Derwent and three Nene per month, so completed in April.

Also, an earlier thread in r.a.m. (Russian Jet Technology 1937-45. started by Peter Evans 29 Apr 1996) has some peritnant information.

Interesting that some of the jets currently on the warbird circuit all use basically the same engine .......

MiG-15, T-33, Hawker Sea Hawk, Meteor...

I've seen loads of RD-45's (the Soviet Nene) lying around at various airfields in Russia - they even use it mounted on trucks as a snow blower.

Maybe we should be thanking that Labour government for providing a source of spare parts/engines to keep these warbirds flying .

Ken

A handful of engines were sold to the Soviets but most of their engines were either knockoffs or designs (the RD-45 was the knockoff, the VK-1 was the improved Soviet redesign.)

The Trumpter kit comes with markings for "Wang Hai" who is supposedly the top ranking PLAAF ace with 9 claimed kills and flew with the 9th Fighter Regiment of the 3rd Fighter Division. The other one is pretty generic but looks to be the 32nd IAD (Fighter Aviation Division) in 1953.

Cookie Sewell

Once upon a time there were discussions re a verticle wavy striped North Korean MiG-15 with thin copper colored stripes between the other colors.

Anybody know how that turned out?

Tom

There are Russian books showing that scheme, but the hard part is figuring out what the colors really were. Some Russian printers have color renderings which could politely be called "approximate"...

Cookie Sewell