Ya know ?? This sounds great, and might have actually worked once or twice, but against a modern fighter with a well trained pilot, this and the "Cobra" manuver are a bad idea in fighter combat.
I talked to an F 15 driver about it once, and he told me that anyone who loses all airspeed in a fight, (like viffing, and cobra) is just asking to get shot down !! As he put it, "no one stands still in a fast moving fight"
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
Yes, otherwise the frog influance would be to have a very fast reverse and full of poultry, i mean chicken out of things when the going gets tough
What ever it takes to avoid being acquired. I works in the field and an extra trick in the Harrier pilots inventory. A plane that stops mid air plays havoc with target prediction and aquisition.
The RAF/RN pilots who shot down the Argentinians praised their skill and bravery and I have no reason to doubt those pilots judgement on the air engagements.
Lets quantify that for a moment. It worked once or twice and thats about it...
Simple rule of warfare is you only get a few limited chances to use a trick like that, and then the enemy is on to you. And a manuver like that leaves a fighter without any enegry, which in air combat is often the difference between life and death. Not to mention the fact that it leaves said fighter an easy target for ground fire ! But then Harriers are sooo LOUD that you hear them quite easilly. (loudest single engine fighter I've ever heard)
I've yet to meet one fighter pilot type who thinks that standing still over, and in the middle of a battlefield is a good idea.
I wish I knew some Harrier pilots I could talk to....................
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
2) I believe they shot the Argentinians down. I don't believe VIFFing had anything to do with it. Four years spent flight testing Harriers colors my opinion.
3) Yes - but the plane that fired it has to bring the missile into a firing solution in the first place. You don't just get airborne and go lobbing weapons downrange at nothing. Not to mention that if you shoot a radar supported missile you may have to keep your nose on the target until intercept.4) See 2), above.
5) Precisely. And if you know (or even suspect) what type aircraft you expect to encounter, you spend an amount of time studying just how to put you opponent at a disadvantage BEFORE you meet him. Obviously the Argentines didn't do thier homework.
Funny...I had just the same conversation with a bunch of Hornet drivers not long ago. And heard the same responce.
I know a lot of them...including THE Harrier driver. I was involved in Harrier flight test for four years. AND - I've gotten to "fly" the jet myself - albeit in the sim at MCAS Yuma.
And actually, if you've ever had one sneak up on you at 500 KTAS and
200' AGL (like I have - hazard of knowing Harrier drivers) it's dead silent...until it's in front of you. And then it's too late.You are correct, BTW...
You dont stand still. Its like driving a car. You slow right down and the guy behind overtakes or rear ends you. That moment of distraction is yours. I doubt in combat noise polution is the immediate concern. (They are based a few miles south of where I live and the Tornados tend to drown them out anyway.)
Yup. Have learned to snap-shoot bogeys that try that with me...then break off, extend, and re-attack if required.
You don't need combat noise to drown them out - you just plain can't hear them coming until they are overhead. I've had one or two of my AV8 driving friends sneak up on me unawares...once then I was playing ground FAC with a mortor team. At least then we knew he was coming - we called him in for a fly-by once the sim CAS/attack work was done. We were up on a bluff, and he came up from below belly on to us - close enough to count rivets in the underside. Saw him coming, but couldn't hear anything until he was well above us.
Second time - I was on my way to jump my (then) new skydiving rig for the first time. I knew a couple of the guys were out for NATOPS checks that day, but had forgotten. Anyway, they road-recce'd me and ID'd my Trans Am heading south...snuck up behind me at 200' AGL and dusted me off - two ships, in succession. Again, never heard either of them until they were in front of me.
As you are overtaken, his wingman crosses over and whacks your ass and it's over. See thats the problem, either you and your wingman both viff, or one of you does, and the other breaks. That allows the flight attacking you to crossover and all of a sudden you become the easier target to kill. You cant pick up enegry fast enough to outmanuver an incomming missle, or well setup gunnery snap shot. Which you've just made easier.... You might... get a shot at your antoginist, but more likely you will be distracted yourself by your attackers wingman. If you both viff, there should still be enough lateral seperation for the attacking flight to crossover. (hi, or low yo yo) Your also giving any weapons fired at you an easier target soloution.(particularry pure ballistic ones !!)
BTW, Harriers just dont come to a standstill or slow donw that rapidly.
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
I had an F 105 sneak up on me (well all of us) at an airshow, and hit the crowd with a supersonic boom. I dont remember how low he was (really didnt matter at that point) but he seemed close. He flew right over the crowd ! This was in '69 at Rome AFB. The supersonic boom was VERY impressive !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
Now you have to give the Argie's credit, and a LOT iof it too. Their naval aviation pilots in their A 4's hit quite a few British warships They flew long distances mostly over water using basic navigation, and attacked with mostly manual bombing modes. No ejection seats in the A 4's, and no real chance of any air sea rescue if (when) shot down. They flew low and fast, and they were brave as hell............. Their Mirages, and Entendards flew even further, and were few in number. Why they never got their Pucara's up to speed I dont know. The few missions flown by them proved them as an effective light CAS A/C
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
I'm thinking in that by viff'ing, you are also attracting people on the ground who otherwise wouldnt be paying attention to you. And now here ya go and make all this noise, and standstill. Assuming you are doing this at low level, ground fire can all of a sudden be a real problem. Things like 23mm, 57mm and even 12.7mm........... And at any kind of a medium altitude, you just make yourself a great target for AAA, SAM's and any fighters within radar range. Besides giving those SA 13's, the best chance they will ever get...............
Dont get me wrong, I like the Harrier, it has always been impressive at airshows, and to me, the Av 8B, and the A 10 are the worlds premier CAS A/C.
"Only a Gentleman can insult me, and a true Gentleman never will..."
In article , Azzz1588 writes
IIRC, there were. ISTR the pilot who designed the "Eject in time" poster was killed by his ejector seat. He landed a damaged A4, thought he was going off the runway and punched out. The seat didn't zero-zero function, and he died. The A4 rolled to a halt and was flying again soon after.
Also IIRC, they found the body of an Argentinean pilot some years later, on a small island in Falklands Sound. He'd got out, made it to the rock, but hadn't been noticed and died of exposure/starvation or the like.
Regards,
>In article , Moramarth writes
Forget that, I was posting b*ll*cks. Post in haste, repent at leisure... :( The poster artist was Capt. Garcia Cuerva of VIII Brigada, who flew Mirages, and failed to return from a mission on 1st May 1982. I'm conflating two different events, but I think the account of the fatal ejection is essentially correct.
That'd be at most three times the thrust (the F-22 has about 30 kN, vs
10 kN for the Harrier), and twice the speed.
IIRC the Argentines were operating at the very edge of their range, with barely enough fuel for a single bombing run.
In the Falklands, the Harriers had rather a big advantage in the form of the then-new AIM-9L Sidewinder, which was much more capable than the older missiles the Argentinians used.
What exactly did they think they were going to accomplish? Sell them online after the war? Retrieve them for a rear guard action? If only someone had buried some WWII A/C for me to find today... Cheers,
The Keeper (of too much crap)
That really doesn't work either. When the aircraft is VIFF'd hard enough to slow down that much, it departs controlled flight. Unlees you're really (and I mean REALLY) on top of things, you lose it - easily.
As a test engineer, I've seen this more often than not. I "snuck up" on a guy practicing this once...the test mission was over, and her awas out playing. Got nose high, hit the nozzles, lost it. I had a link to his HUD camera and watched the whole evolution in silence. He recovered after a bit, but he was certainly out of control long enough to get shot down..."nice", I said over the mic. "Oh, you still watching?"...I could feel the embarasment...
I also recently got hold of a clip of what happens when an F-15 squats and the attacker doesn't recognise the closing rate and smacks into him...from teh look of things, the guy in the trailing jet ejected, but you can still hear the radio calls of the defender on the ICS. "FIRE - I'm on FIRE"...ends there, with the trailing jet out of control and flailing toward the ground.
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