Getting "railroaded" by model rr companies?

I've not posted here for awhile, but I've become more and more alarmed at what appears to be attempts to "gig" the model railroaders for all that they've got by some of the big name companies. Maybe there are still some reps from the model rr companies on here that can speak to this topic (if they've not been run off by the OT political posts).

While I'm rather happy to see more and more models coming off the line that are representative of what you could see on the real railroads at any give time, the way that they've been selling these products is what I've come to gripe about.

What I'm talking about is the "reserved" limited releases that are starting to appear with more frequency. Over the past few months, I've seen quite a few items that are being built, but you have to reserve your copy months in advance to insure you can get one. Sure, you can wait until they come out and hope to pick up one on Ebay (at probably an increased cost), but why are we starting to get this shoveled down our throats in the first place?

Why should I have to reserve a locomotive, months in advance, wait to get it, and then hope that it's prototypically correct to the amount that I'm paying for it? You can easily shell out $200 for a PLASTIC locomotive now, but when you get it you can't be sure of the quality? (One good example is BLI's SD40-2 for Burlington Northern, which is incorrect in the coloration of the stairwell & plows). If I'm going to pay that amount for a plastic locomotive, it should be PERFECT on details like that. Why should it be a limited run in the first place? The companies now have a good idea as to how many they are likely to sell of a specific locomotive, if I like something I should still be able to get one after the initial release is past. Yet, they are claiming that if you don't reserve your copy, you may not get one. I've not researched the exact numbers produced of specific ones that I've bought lately, or whether they're still available after the initial release, but I know SOME of the ones that I've purchased were very hard to find if you didn't get in on the initial release.

I'm aware that the companies have to make sure they don't have a ton of extra stock sitting on shelves for years afterwards. But finding it hard to get one is just as bad, and smacks of trying to elevate prices to get more for their stuff.

I've got a better idea. Here's what I would do...

Build a base (body) model that is very good but very bare. In other words, make the casting for the *body* exact, but then the "add-ons" are what can increase the cost.

If you buy the base model, you get an exact body casting, but you may get slapped on a set of horns, fans, handrails, tanks or whatever that may not be prototypically correct, and can be mass-produced for all locomotives. You won't get airhoses. You won't find the trucks that detailed. That's your 'cheap' version.

If you choose the upgraded version, you can purchase a package that is specific for the railroad that has the exactly correct castings of the add-on items, and you install them yourself. I think that in most cases people who would want the more advanced models wouldn't mind some work making them look great. Alternatively, you could purchase a fully assembled one if the company chose to go that route. But the main thing is that you build the body correctly, so that you can go the cheap route with the add-ons or go the expensive route.

This way, you have a stock of high-quality parts that you can keep producing for years, and it won't matter because someone will always be purchasing the "add-ons" for their locomotives. The base body casting will be a one-time good deal, so that you can produce a fair amount of them, but you won't have to worry about overstock as you've got both a cheap model to sell and an expensive kit for the others.

Anyhow, that's my gripe and solution.

Cheers!

Jan Kohl Castle Graphics

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Reply to
Jan Kohl
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incorrect in the coloration of the stairwell & plows).< BLI's engines are not out yet as far as I know but with them you are paying additional for sound. Many other manufactures make this engine without sound for a lower cost. Also this note on the BLI SD40-2 engines; "Please refrain from using these photos for public discussion as they do not represent the final product."

Reply to
Jon Miller

I picked up some Kato SD40-2's on EBay recently $50-$65 (w/shipping) for a SD40-2B project. Look pretty good, run great!! A 3-5 engine consist of SD40-2's with a BLI making lots of noise running by the visitors, performance by the silent majority.

Reply to
Paul Newhouse

BLI might have been a bad example, but I do have information from someone who inquired to BLI (and a response coming from BLI themselves) that the finished product would have the paintscheme as shown. Apparently, they claim they have seen this locomotive as painted, but all research (coming from members of a BN group, including engineers) has shown otherwise.

Well, this goes back to my comment that surely manufacturers have a decent idea of the locomotive they are selling and what railway schemes will sell out at. Obviously, this is never going to be 100% correct.

Actually, many of the modellers I've spoken to would not mind doing this. And, as I mentioned, a company could produce RTR models for those who do not (with the additional cost).

Thanks for the input, Jon!

Cheers!

Jan Kohl Castle Graphics

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Reply to
Jan Kohl

It's called "capitalism" and simple economics. You charge what the market will bear. One had better get used to it...

Not really. Andy Sperando of MR, John Sheridan of Microscale, etc., all used to post here, but no longer. They went to web forums or the e-mail lists, for the most part. Jim Sacco of City Classics and one or two other "small" manufacturers (sorry, Jim) are still lurking about...

You don't *have* to, let's make that clear. You are choosing to do all that.

How do you know that? It hasn't come out yet. Unless...you used the internet to look for it. One would think that would be the logical thing to do. Also, ask questions. I know if I had questions on accuracy, I'd be on every web forum and newsgroup asking advice, send e-mails off to the manufactuerer, etc. In fact, I have done it, and got Atlas to change the numbers on their New Haven RS-1's to be accurate for the paint scheme.

No argument there.

Because otherwise, it would not be made. Imagine a world without limited run. Manufacturers make constant production runs, and have a lot of stock to sell. You would be able to walk into any hobby shop in the world and always get whatever is being manufactured. But, they would, of course, only make the most popular models, meaning F-units, GP9's, SD40's, etc. (this would make sure they sold the most units possible). That's all you'd be able to buy as less popular engines would never be made. It's hard to sell 10,000 oddball models to the general MR'ing public.

Suuure they do. That's why there are so many AEM-7's laying around, why there were so many SD60's (P2K) from the first run in the bargain bins...

Why? That's means that the manufacturer made too many (or they are priced too high). Why should the manufacturers (and by extension, the hobby shops) pay to store a model just in case you happen by and pick it up? They aren't a warehousing service. They are all in it to make money, as much as they can, legally. It's the American way, and you don't survive as a hobby shop by carrying dead stock.

That's because they practically make a run to order, with a number of models above and beyond those ordered. So, you can get them, but you may not.

You'll not find that info. Atlas and Athearn (and most every other manufacturer) are very guarded when it comes to production numbers. They won't tell anyone, as it's rather a trade secret.

That's been true for an awful while now.

So what? This may shock you, but the manufacturers are in this to make money.

You mean, like the Athearn "blue box" models?

You mean, like the Athearn "blue box" models?

Ha! And again I say ha! Have you not been paying attention to the recent trends in MR'ing lately? People are more than willing to pay the manufacturer to put the parts on for them. For example, P1K made the RS-2's, and what was the hue and cry? "There's no grabirons." Ever since, P1K models have had grabs applied by P1K.

So, a hobby shop would have to stock three of the same model for every model made: basic, add-on parts, and fully assembled. I think a snowball's chance has better odds...

As long as you only want F-units and SD40's, I guess that's a good thing.

I don't think so.

And who's going to pay to store these thousands of models until someone buys them? Do you have any idea how much storage costs are?

I think I'll stick with the current system, which allows me, with a little work and patience, to get DL109s for only $75 MSRP vs. brass $700+, or NE-6's for only $27 MSRP vs. $250 for brass.

Paul A. Cutler III

************* Weather Or No Go New Haven *************
Reply to
Pac Man

I'll have to keep that in mind for my "Katy" Baldwins. They're a mixed lot detail-wise. For some, a stock Athearn GP9 long hood will almost do, for others the winterization hatch and fans have to be changed out.

Jay

website URL: members.aol.com/orphantrainlocos/index.html All the world's a stage - and everybody's a critic.

Reply to
JCunington

Jan Kohl wrote: [...]

Well, it sounds good, until you do the sharp-pencil work. You've forgotten the labour and "overhead" involved. It costs an astonishing amount to package, warehouse, and pick those add-on parts -- it's easily double or triple the cost of the part itself -- and that's cost to the manufacturer. A similar cost ratio is true for the wholesaler. The same costing holds true for packaging and storing combinations of your base body + detail parts concept. IOW, labour is a far larger cost, even in China, that materials. In any case, it's the importer, distributor, and dealer who would have to store those add-on parts.

Consider a "standard" 40ft steel boxcar as owned by a dozen or more railroads. It turns out there are, say, three types of doors, two brake wheel variants, two types of ladders, plus one railroad that used grab irons instead of ladders, and four (count 'em) variations in the ends. What do you as kit manufacturer do?

You could build the most common variant, and just sell that, assuming that a lot of people will accept a "close enough" model for their variant, or make whatever changes they feel they must. That's the Athearn/Roundhouse solution.

Or you could build a basic body + detail parts kit. Accurail and Branchline are examples of mfrs who take this route. Now you'd think they would save money by just putting in the parts for a specific variant with the base body, but you'd be wrong. It's cheaper to make a sprue with all the variant doors, for example, and dump the whole lot into the box than to make separate sprues (or cut them) and pick the correct variant for each roadname.

Similar calculations show that it's cheaper to build all locos with one style of coupler, and pack the other style in the box, rather than build X locos with coupler A, and Y locos with coupler B. Or with and without window awnings, and so on. So why do many locos come with a package od detail parts? Because it's than replacement of shipping-damaged parts.

The same calculations are impacting on DCC: it's getting to be cheaper overall to build all locos with decoders installed, than to guess wrong on the demand for decoder vs non-decoder equipped locos. Dual mode decoders make this a no-brainer, anyway.

Many of us modellers are older types who were young when, for example, brass parts cost more than plastic. We remember when a basic kit cost a dollar or two, and forget that a dollar or two per hour was a good wage back then. We lived in a time when manufacturers and dealers didn't have a good handle on the cost of storing product, and so were willing to stock vast amounts of parts. Most of us made a lot of stuff from scratch or parts, and I'll bet few of us took the trouble of adding up the cost of superdetailing that cheap boxcar kit or generic loco. I did, once: a $0.98 Athearn boxcar cost me over $3 in new trucks, KD couplers, misc. details such as correct (and correctly installed) brake parts, plus of course correct decals.... Was it worth it? Yes, because I couldn't get what I wanted in kit or r-t-r form. Now I can, and I pay $20-40 for it - about the same as that superdetailed car cost me, when you allow for inflation. And better than I could make it myself, actually - I'm only an average modeller at best.

We also counted our labour at zero dollars, a rather odd way IMO to account for that most precious commodity, our time. For people who like to build models, that time is well spent. But for many, perhaps most people however, scratch- and kit-building were and are a more or less forced choice; we'd rather run trains and operate layouts than build stuff.

Manufacturers respond to demand, they always have. So long as special or superdetailed editions sell, limited or otherwise, they will be made. Those who complain about this have to face the unpleasant fact that they are a minority. The fact that whenever they do complain they elicit a large number of like-minded responses disguises this minority status, but it's a minority status all the same.

Cheers to you, too!

Reply to
Wolf Kirchmeir

It's also interesting to note the cost of parts if purchased in large quantities (hundreds) of sprues only. You would be amazed at the difference between that and the cost of a baggie (one each) on the hobby shop shelf.

Reply to
Jon Miller

And hasn't this been done for years by RR modelers?

Model Railroader frequently runs how-to articles for taking an off-the-shelf model, modifying the body by shorting or lengthening it. Then removing various detail parts, and applying new detail parts. (Detail parts for locomotives have been available for decades.) Sometimes even scratch building new detail parts. Finally painting and decaling the new model, to have a custom made model of an engine ignored by the model manufacturers.

Sometimes these MR articles go all the way back to the basics to show the reader how to build a locomotive from scratch out of brass.

Reply to
Ken Rice

: > If you choose the upgraded version, you can purchase a package that is : > specific for the railroad that has the exactly correct castings of the : > add-on items, and you install them yourself. I think that in most cases : > people who would want the more advanced models wouldn't mind some work : > making them look great.

: Ha! And again I say ha! Have you not been paying attention to the : recent trends in MR'ing lately? People are more than willing to pay the : manufacturer to put the parts on for them. For example, P1K made the : RS-2's, and what was the hue and cry? "There's no grabirons." Ever since, : P1K models have had grabs applied by P1K.

Actually a bunch of us BEGGED LL to NOT put cast on grabs on the RS2 when they announced that it was going to be a Proto 1000. They NEVER had any intention of putting separate grabs on that engine. That was the whole point of the Proto 1000 engines. Lower cost point, less detail. The RS11 appaarntly was going to be the same but something changed along the way. AND it's higher much higher list price reflects the added details.

Interestingly my sources tell me that LL was surprised at how well the RS2 sold. They sold out very quickly and prompted more runs. Same for the RS11. HOWEVER, I'm still able to find them on ebay, at shows and hobby shops and have never paid list price for one. It takes a little more work but you don't have to reserve evrything to be sure to get one. The only engine I haven't found after the fact is a Atlas U23b factory painted for LV. Bought one, but never have found a second that I could afford.

Steve

Reply to
S C Sillato

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