Scrap steels - was Re: 5160 -- why?

snipped-for-privacy@XX.com wrote in


Speaking of free stuff, I've been prying some interesting things out of the back yard while trimming back a few cedar bushes (trying to make them be trees instead of shrubs) so the landlord can mow it a little easier. (I'd mow, but since he has a brush hog, I just weedeat the edges and let him handle the hard part)
Why there was a tie rod ~100ft from anywhere that I could imagine someone working on a car, ~200ft from the coil spring, and in a strange place to carry somthing that heavy to, I can't imagine, but I'm not going to complain, since it's several pounds of potentially useful free metal. The dozer blade edge I posted about earlier on a.c.b was cut to a point on one end, and apparently used as a temporary sign post.
I've been looking at iforgeiron.com's junkyard steel page, ( http://tinyurl.com/5v9no ) but the list is not exactly complete when you get right down to all the crap laying around in some parts of Texas, and I'm not entirely sure how accurate it might be. I'd like to pick the brains of the various folks in here and compile my own pair of lists; 1) What kind of steel are various types of junk, and 2) What is each type suitable for?
That second list may end up being rearraged into what type of steel is suitable for a given project type, since that seems an easier way to ask.
So, to get down to brass tacks, what are the following usually made of: Tie rod Good screwdriver Crappy screwdriver Logging chain Garden tools (hoe, mattock, pick, shovel, etc) Anything else one might find laying around abandoned
And, assuming forging, of course, what are the best choices for making (include quirks, especially regarding HT, if known): Hammers Slit chisels Punches Drifts Hardies Small knives Large, potential axe/prybar/hammer type knives Pointy twisted rods with no discernible purpose (every forge seems to have lots of these) Anything else one might pound hot metal into
For those wondering about the slit chisel comparison from last week, the other guy didn't get around to making one, and mine held its edge quite well until I went through the workpiece, missed the hole in the plate protecting the anvil face, and got it stuck in the still-red-hot workpiece for several miuntes while we tried to get it free. Regrinding and retempering went well, though, so now we know how, and have several more turns of the coil spring to make more from until we figure out how to avoid getting them stuck/overheated.
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"Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH" wrote:

re: Good things from the Junkyard
Coil and leaf springs are made from SAE 5160, at least from American cars. 5160 is the bottom end of high carbon with 1% of chrome as the major alloy agent. It is an oil hardening steel and will go to around Rc 61-63 at full hard. It forges nicely at orange-yellow and talks to you noticibly when it gets too cold. It will take and hold a bright mirror finish and a razor edge, if that's what you want.
Axle shafts are made from SAE 6160. 6160 has vanadium in the mix and makes good tools, like hammers, dollys, and cutters. It is a bear to forge at any temp below bright yellow, and has a memory, but once you convince it to change shape it stays forever. It oil hardens to around Rc 65+ at full hard.
Large bolts, say over 1.5", are usually 4340 chromoly, and as long as you don't try to hammer weld to it, is a good forger at orange. It is good for prying tools and will go to the low 50s Rc in oil full hard.
As for your chisel getting stuck, keep it cooler. That's what the dip bucket is for.
Charly
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Interesting; iforgeiron's page lists car coils as 4360 and truck ones as 5160. Is that a mixup on their part, or do some other countries use 4360 for the coil springs?
That one has forged well so far. I made SWMBO a purse-size crowbar out of it on a whim, and it seems just as good as the similar size ones at the hardware store.

Another one that is different from the existing list; they have axles as 1040, so I'm starting to think their list is a bit incomplete as to the possible alternate compositions for each item. I know some of our guys have made stakes for a fairly large tent (think somewhere between a GP medium and and a large) out of axles, and the darn things show a lot less wear after several years of use than the sledges used to drive them, so I'm favoring your analysis for those shafts, at least.

Good to know. My mini-scimitar thingie was once a .5-.75" bolt. It's still being worked on bit by bit, but it's intended to be an intimidating wallhanger for the most part :)

I'm thinking of nailing a coffee can to the back side of the stump specifically for this, so I won't have to fish it out of the slack tub after numb fingers fumble the tongs.
Now that I think about it, a small rack with three cans could be nice to keep brine, oil, and Superquench handy in addition to the water.
At any rate, great info so far, and exactly the sort of thing I was hoping for.
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Note, if you include the water, the rack has to hold 4 cans. :^) --Glenn Lyford
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We've already got the large slack tub for that, but I suspect that 10gal each of the above would be a bit excessive for the small stuff we're usually doing.
Though a few smaller cans might be nice for keeping the borax handy, use one for the chisels...heck, with a little work, we could make all sorts of things convenient...nah, that'll never happen.
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On 02 Oct 2004 06:51:05 GMT, "Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH"

that sounds like my shop
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wrote:

Hmm...a piece of 3" bar across the top of the rack with holes punched to keep all the hardie hole tools organized...maybe a few slots for the hammers...something to keep all the different tongs lined up and a file readily available...and all of it made with a handle and wheels so we can roll it in and out of storage...yeah, this could make way too much sense for us to ever try it.
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With retractable wheels? ;)
Alvin in AZ
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"Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH" wrote:

Well, don't take it as Gospel, there's no telling what goes into stuff today. If you want some stock that will really be hard and tough in the finished piece, look at gearbox shafts. I had to bake a mainshaft for three days to get it soft enough to cut with a file. I haven't got a clue what's in it, but it ignored the 25# LG all the way to welding yellow. I had to use the Big Slammer on it to get it to move, and that has a 180 pound head. I have to sharpen it with a grinder, files bounce right off.

The reason I said 'don't try to hammer weld to chromoly' is that an oxide 'skin' forms on the surface at heat, and this oxide has an extremely high fusion point. It 'll LOOK welded, but it's actually a cold shut when you put the load to it. I've TRIED, nothing works. The only way I've found that gives guaranteed fusion is the MIG, oxygen is a deal breaker.

We aim to please, you aim too, please. Remember, just because it isn't glowing doesn't mean it's not hot...
Charly
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I've gotten to where I figure "5160" is as good a name for automotive suspension springs/parts as any. ;)
Here's a fairly complete list just from one book on the subject-
4047 4060 4068 4161 5060 50B60 5160 51B60 6150 8647 8650 (also Eklin allen wrenches -mostly;)- uses this too) 8660 (auto-springs & extra large bearing races) 9255 9260 (car springs) 9261 (car springs) 9262 (car springs)
The book was very inconsistant but made a point of talking quite abit about the 9260 9261 9262 in relation to passenger car sized springs as if it's a more common type.
The main point was to use the cheapest stuff on the market at the time that will work good-nuff. Good-nuff includes an alloyed steel that will harden all the way to the core and not be more than a point of hardness difference between the core and the surface.
Thick-ass;) truck springs would tend to be 5160 and car springs would tend to be 5060 for example.
The spring works longest if it's all the same, inside and out.

I read a little about axles and gearbox shafts they don't have to be as highly alloyed as suspension springs but that's the general rule, if weight reduction or other factors come up the general rules get tossed out, right? :)
Like Charly's "gearbox shaft" could have been a problem as designed for a certain size... so either re-design the thing or use a better steel for the shaft that was "designed too small". We could guess a thousand guesses and still not get it right tho! ;)
Also a big deal is made from case hardening the parts with nitrogen and carbon etc when it comes to gears and axles. 1040 with a thick carbon case is a typical example for gears and axles.

That's my favorite quote from this, or any thread, on this subject! :)

For sure. :)

I don't know shit about pounding hot steel but just wondering if that wasn't some Boron steel? :/ Boron makes steel so extra deep hardening that I'd suspect it might act like that for a blacksmith. <shrug> The extra high hardness has got me stumped tho, did you spark test it? What'd the carbon content look like?
The main thing is to me, with a spark test, you're in the ball park of knowing what it is unless it acts really weird like that gearbox shaft, if it's medium carbon automotive suspension parts it'll heat treat and later perform like 5160 anyway.

Grade 8 ones?
The machinist handbook I read once mentions something to that effect I tried to get the "gist" of Grade 2, 5 and 8 bolt material... but when posted the simple-gist of it to r.c.m got told I "was wrong". ;)
Alvin in AZ
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FWIW, that link didn't get me there, so I had to dig around to find http://iforgeiron.com/Blueprints and scroll down to BP0002 Junk_Yard_Steel
(and thanks for posting that, it's a cool site). --Glenn Lyford
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That's really weird...I've never seen one do that before. Let's try it again.
http://tinyurl.com/47wrm http://makeashorterlink.com/?O3B126D69
These seem to work, but I could've sworn I tested the other one before posting, too.
Check out the other stuff under blueprints while you're there.
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