I'm looking to make a set of training knives for Kung Fu, due to
regulations (go Canadian Government) I can not purchase them (even
though they are dull and blunt). Anyways I'm looking for something low
maintenance and nice looking (won't rust, stays shiney), easy to forge
would be nice, low cost would be good, it doesn't need to be heat
treatable, and it doesn't have to hold an edge. I would like to match
the balance and weight of a fighting knife (or at least the one Sifu has
that I will be copying) so I don't want to use aluminium. Any suggestions?
Am i missed something here...?
You're saying that in Canada we cannot buy a knife that is dull and blunt..?
I have several knives, all sharp and pointy, surely more dangerous than the
dull variety in combat, and I assure you _most_ of them are legal ;)
If you wanted a Dull knife, couldn't you simply buy a sharp one at any store
and just dull it off..? I'm not quite sure where you got the impression
that Dull knives are illegal...?
The story that I have been told is that about 3-4 years ago those
wise people in charge of things (either customs or someother government
agency) have told all suppliers of Martial Arts equipment (at least in
Ontario) that they are not allowed to sell solid metal practice knives,
they can sell wood or those bendy/springy metal swords or ruber/plastic
knives or full sized replica katana but not metal knives (wood and
rubber/plastic just don't move/feel the same). I know it is stupid. It
might be that the knives (I've seen them called Ring Daggers because of
the ring on the pommel) in question are double-edged and 6ish inches
long (though as far as I know real ones like that are legal...). I
figure that it is just paranoia by some government person insuring that
the mass public is protected from some wacked out psycho martial artist
using sharpened practice weapons to gut innocent movie goers or
something (ignoring the fact that the practice weapons are made from
crap steel, which won't hold an edge, isn't very tough). Somethings the
government does I don't mind, or things are very annoying...
We have a ring dagger similar to the one u describe at the Dojo that we use
in practice. I don't see anything about the knife that would classify it as
illegal... But if like you say the real ones are legal then you could get a
real one and dull it. Or you could try getting one from somewhere else in
Canada or order one from the US.
I may very well have to order one from the US, but as someone on
rec.knives pointed out when they got a knife shipped to them and had it
confiscated at the border Canada Customs can be very picky about what
they let through. Truth be told I'd rather just make it, I've wanted to
do bladesmithing for a while so I have been taking a blacksmithing
course, reading books, surfing the web and what not.
Buy them. They're red or orange foam plastic and dirt cheap.
if you must make them, use wood. Ash, beech or oak are good. You can
make good kid's toys this way, but you shouldn't use them for training
- a stabbing motion with a wooden blade can kill.
There are no metal "training" knives in any dojo I'm involved with.
Far too dangerous.
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
These would be for Forms not self-defense, using metal knives for
self-defense would be like using real weapons in a theatre production,
just asking for it. As it happens I have not seen the particuliar style
of knife in question sold in foam plastic in any of the catalogs that
the school has nor are they available from any online store that I have
checked (I spent about an hour using google to help me look). Aside from
the "being true to my style" sentiment some of the specialized moves of
said form require that style of knife.
Don't worry about your weight requirement (not using aluminum because of the
weight difference)- all martial systems have used surrogates for demo/two
man drills that were a different weight than the real deal. In solo
practice, just use your 'real' weapon; same for 'cutting' practice.
Besides, I think someone was just pulling your chain about the customs/legal
aspects. Even Canadians can't outlaw the reflection of a shadow of a picture
of a weapon- that's silly.
Well I have looked through many Martial Arts Equipment supply books
for Canadian companies, it is simplely amazing the amount of stuff that
says "Not Legal For Sale In Canada." Now I can't say why certain items
are illegal when they are less harmful than others items that are legal,
nor can I tell you why they have banned dull, blunt metal practice
knives, but they have. They are no longer listed in the Canadian
equipment books (though you can find them in the US books). Governments
do silly things Chas, sometimes the things they do are sillier than this.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 12:29:40 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
I just object to this notion of "dull metal"
I don't think you _can_ "dull" metal to any useful level of safety.
If it's metal, then it's thin, and a thin hard edge is going to cut.
Train with metal knives by all means (at a high enouh level), but I
think any thought of them as "training" items brings in an unsafe
Mind you, I was at a party with LARPers last night (sort-of SCA if
you're in the US). They wear more armour than a park of Challengers,
and nothing harder allowed than a foam-rubber boffer.
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
You can get cut with them but it is really hard. We have more injuries with
wooden practice knives because people tend to take them less seriously. We
also used rolled up and tape newspaper "knives" for full on training. We
always grade with steel knives however.
We have far more accidents in none weapons work. We have had a few nasty
mishaps with swords however.
Live action role players tend to be nerdy bookish types who are happy to
talk the talk but usually dont walk the walk.
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 22:47:02 +0800, "Fraser Johnston"
!! 8-) Ooh..... Handbags at dawn 8-)
Lets just say that some of them have much in common with the IT people
who always wear climbing boots, just in case a mountain should
suddenly spring up in the server room.
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods
Live action role players tend to be more interested in the role
playing than in spending years training so they don't get hurt. If
you want to let people play, you have to either take horrendously
expensive insurance (and thus have horrendously expensive
prices/membership), or make things so safe that nobody has a chance of
suing the organisation.
I speak as someone who does LARP and also metal weapons fighting (like
SCA but with blunted metal weapons). membership in the metal weapons
group costs me five times as much as the LARP group. The difference
is the insurance.
Oh, and Andy? They're boots. They're comfortable. Suits/PHBs care
less about them than they do about sneakers. Get over it.
I have sets of the training knives made by Steve Rollert
(http://www.keenedgeknives.com /). The are made from a heavy, dense aluminum,
I think. They have ground bevels and look very good, but there is just
nothing to abrade you. The stock is 5/16ths or something- even with the
distinct bevels, the 'edge' is a fat 3/16ths or so (haven't got one in my
hand or anything). All of the edges are rounded, and then it's sandblasted
or something- kind of a strong matte finish.
I've probably got a couple of dozen training knives, and Steve's are the
ones I use for speed demos by students, because they're very forgiving to
small mistakes. I use them for my own hand all the time.
Off topic to the material; Steve's daughter, Jamie, does the tsuka-ita type
cord wrap for the training knives. I've been using them now for years, and
her wrap has not loosened or anything- it is as tight and slick as the day
she did it.
And aside; Steve makes the finest fighting knives I've ever held in my hand
made by anyone at any time. He's an instructing smith and does the state of
the art for pattern-weld, close machining, stacked heat-treatment, cryogenic
stuffola, sophisticated steels- and combining them; all that stuff.
Couple that with being an outdoorsman, outfitter, paramedic, firefighter and
long time martial arts instructor in blading arts- he makes a hell of a
There are several in my photo gallery- I like them for display projects as
well as personal carry/demo, so I've been lucky enough to have a number of
them. Sorry about photoing some of them only in the sheath- the bad photos
were mostly taken just for my studio record, the good ones by accident <g>
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