Installed a Star in CO back in 1985. Got ready to set up the machine..... they had no tools. "We want to use those new insert tools!"=20 Right! Back then, there were very few inserts that could be used on a Swiss.
The part was turned, threaded up to a shoulder, w/.040 thd relief, no fillet radius, and cut-off clean.
"Sorry, there's only a few insert tools that will even fit on this machine, and certainly not for a part like this." "You'll need to use brazed carbide."
"We don't have any."
"I happen to have a few in my box. Where's your tool grinder?"
"We don't have one."
"Well... how do you sharpen your tools?"
"Oh. Over here!"
And they take me to a pedestal grinder, with a Green Wheel!!
BB, I bought the SRD in 1975 because they had a left hand attachment for my screw machine spots & drills, even if your good at hand grinding drills try a left hand one. (screws up your mind).
It's a good grinder but I just use it now-A-days for spot drills. Matter of fact I just remembered I have 6 3/4" 90 deg spots to grind was putting it off, you blew my Sunday .
The Darex is an M4 (the one with two wheels) & it's nice in that I can grind any angle & do flat bottom drills on it. The split point is done on the right side. I don't think they make them anymore, I bought it in 1979. It's not that easy to use until you re-mark all the dials to where they should be. It like the SRD goes to 3/4".
Gee BB I'm lazy er than you I don't bother with anything under 1/4" & like you just buy a 10 pack. I have done 3/16 drills into a flat bottom only because I couldn't buy them.
Thats funny. I learned to sharpen Left Hand drills. Twist drills, and Half Rounds. I can make a little left hand drill look like new. But to this day, I cannot get a good point on a Right Hand drill:-)=20
Might have something to do with the fact that I'm Left handed. And I use an Agathon type tool grinder w/diamond wheels, where you grind on the side of the wheels. Using the left side of the wheel, and turning the drill in a counter clockwise direction is a natural movement.=20
Using the right side of the wheel, and turning the drill in a clockwise direction is something I just can't seem to do smoothly. Not too bad with a small drill that I can spin in my fingers, but I have a lot of trouble with larger drills where I actually have to turn my wrist. Always come out uneven and don't cut well. So I don't even bother anymore.
Lazy? No, no, no. You've got to use the correct "business-impact language". We're not being lazy, we're being "Energy and Human Resource Efficient". Drills under 3/16" run about $1.00 each on average. It takes about a minute to walk to and from the drill grinder, another couple of minutes to actually fit the drill, grind, and split point it. Now if your shop rate is $60 per hour, that's a dollar per minute. So you've spent a minimum of $3.00 in time resharpening a $1.00 drill (with probably slightly less quality that a new one), AND taking time away from other more important shop activities like setting up or programming the next machine. Sooooo, lazy doesn't enter into the equation. We are engaging in new paradigms of value added synergistic infrastructure transitions and orchestrating optimal profit-oriented stratigizing schemas.
Somebody has recently read some Six Sigma, 5S, or some other Lean Manufacturing literature (e.g. Kaizen, Kanban, etc), but I won't say who specifically.
Nawww. I'm just a job-shop rat, we're not into any of those systems of managerial double-speak. It was just something I cobbled together this morning when I woke up. Sounded better than "too lazy to grind small drills" though, didn't it? LOL
BottleBob wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
Bob,
I see a bright future in management for you. Anyone that can use that many buzz words in a single sentence is destined to be a CEO at minimum ;-) Not wishing that on you by any means though. (Been there done that, got the pre-frontal lobotomy to prove it. MGMT. Not CEO)
================== Another piece of the puzzle that I posed earlier to the group about why/how was Germany with its high labor costs, capital costs, environmental costs, etc. able to support a significant and growing manufacturing and technology sectors, while the US was not.
Any insight into how this place even got started, and how they remain in business?
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
========== Quick question -- any reason you didn't use 3/16 end mills as drills?
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
BottleBob wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
Heh. There's a lot more that I can't talk about than I can. Maybe when I retire.
That company ended up going bankrupt. Their assets were bought at auction by another one of our customers. It's really hard to stay in business when you don't pay for your equipment and burn every bridge,
F. George McDuffee wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Don't know about his particular case but I make flat bottoms vs. using an end mill when the hole is too deep for the end mill. Also most end mills won't leave a truly flat bottom.
F. George McDuffee wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:
Well first off you have to ignore the fact that US manufacturing is growing. But Germany has a much lower corporate tax rate than the US does. Ours at 40% is the highest amongst industrialized nations. Also German wages in manufacturing have stagnated or declined, same as in the US, or maybe more so. It's difficult to say due to currency flucuation. But compared to inflation German wages have declined. Also be mindful of who compiles the data that shows high German wages -
There are lots of little differences too. Germany is very nationalistic. Just ask any of the Japanese builders who offer superior machine tools for sale in Germany at lower prices than German companies. In the hierarchy of preferred companies to buy from it would be Germany, Switzerland, Italy, Austria, Spain, France, etc.. Japan and the US are way down the list. So they support their own industries first, European businesses second and everyone else last.
The establishment of a unified currency helped give Germany economic parity in the global economy. Plus it equalized cost throughout the EU countries which are Germany's biggest market.
The land mass of the country is small and the population is relatively small and not very diverse. So there's a built in energy efficiency, easy mass transit, low shipping costs, all shared by a people who are culturally speaking all on the same page.
Hell, anybody can start a machine shop. It's not hard. Staying in business and making money at it is the trick. I've seen companies that were owned by very capable smart machinists who did outstanding work go out of business for lack of work. I've also seen companies run by clueless hacks that were buried in work. The real trick seems to be in finding a steady supply of decent paying work and turning it out on time with no quality problems.
Just because you are a great machinist doesn't mean that you'll be able to sell. If you can't sell you'll starve. A good salesman can't always run an efficient machine shop. That's the rub. You have to be able to do both. Or you'll have to hire and pay for the talents that you lack.
But there really are very few cases where a business based in the US can't compete globally. Our economy is massive and manufacturing isn't anywhere near the largest segment. So the desire to invest, recruit, train, and compete isn't nearly as great here as it is in countries where manufacturing is the big dog in the local economy.
I didn't know that, but I could tell Kirk knew what he was talking about. Lots of smart people "what been there and done that" in this group.
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Protectionism via Import Taxes would be my guess....don't know about now but when I spent two years there they had huge, prohibitively high import taxes.
I can't even remember the name of the company, or what they made. Seemed to me that these guys were pretty clueless. Management had just purchased two Tornos cam machines (M-4's IIRC) because they knew some of their parts could be made on them. The machines had been sitting there for 6 mos. or more, and nobody had any idea how they worked.
When they discovered that I knew how to set up cam machines, they were all over me for information. I sort of walked them through an imaginary set-up, but they had no cams or tooling. Let them know where to get cams, collets, bushings, tools, etc., and they even talked about having me fly up there for a few days training, but I never heard from them again.
I remember now, that wasn't 1985. It was the beginning of 1987, which was when I left Star. Guess that's why I never heard from them again:-)
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