so my wife has been bugging me to do some intricate chainsawing, on our trees, actually. and there you go, with just the tool to do it.
so now i am trying to figure out how I can get my mill on a lift up into the tree canopy, with these babies in the spindle
ca
BottleBob wrote:
Matt:
If you've got a pedestal grinder, disk sander, belt sander, or surface grinder, you've ALREADY GOT a drill sharpener, eh?
Technology just spoils us soooo much. I don't even know if I could remember how to use a Volstro head.
============ Indeed it is.
I don't generally use 1/2-13 [my stuff is smaller] and when I do I use a screw machine length drills for clearence.
The #2MT shanks work fine in the lathe tail stock, but I seldom do anything that needs a 1/2-13 on a turned part. Still these are very nice TiN coated drills and the chips roll out with the Peugeot points with good surface finish. Wish I had a complete number/letter/fraction/metric set.
FWIW -- one of the students got a Darex Drill Doctor for Xmas and brought it to class for "show and tell." We played around with it [It comes with an instruction video tape]. His model did both
118 and 135 degree regular and split points, and it seemed to work very well.Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
As a follow-on to another post. I got one of the el cheapo drill pointer jigs and mounted it on the belt/disk sander stand. Seems like it does a good job and you can get both 118 and 135 degree points on even quite large drills. Again no fancy points, just conicals, and for web thinning you will need a Drimel tool or something similar. The Drimel will also let you grind chip breaker notches in the drill lips (with a thin cut-off wheel) which is a neat trick but of limited use in the home shop.
Not the thing for the production shop, and not as fast/easy as the Drill Doctor, but better than I can do by hand. Both flutes seem to cut the same amount, and the holes are to size.
For the one I have see
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
Yeah....I have all of the above, except a surface grinder:-( I used to sharpen drills by hand. Rarely went to the drawer for a new one, but I've gotten lazy:-) These drills are split points. Can't do that by hand, and unfortunately my gang lathe doesn't have the power to push a hand sharpened drill that big. Even with the free cutting split points, it will stall with a feed over .003" ipr. (316L mold inserts).
Matt
Matt:
Haven't we all.
I've done spit points by hand (we've got a Darex that can do web thinning now), so I don't do it much anymore. Here's a site that shows how to do web thinning by hand.
I've got two drill grinders SRD & Darex I'm to old to screw with doing them by hand both will split-point. I could grind one by hand IF I had to but why?
DD:
Just curious, what are your opinion of the pros and cons to each drill grinder?
The point was that Matt doesn't HAVE a drill grinder, so being able to do it by hand might come in handy sometime. Another tid-bit, we don't even bother to grind drills smaller than about 3/16". It's cheaper to just buy a package of ten than take the time to futz around with the drill grinder. Another point, the largest drill size our Darex grinds is about 5/8", so anything larger we grind by hand. So hand-grinding can still be a useful skill.
I've thinned webs by hand. And you're right, they work in a pinch. But getting the nice fine point you get on split points is next to impossible by hand. Also, my eyes aren't what they used to be, so I end up using a visor and have to stick my head in to the coolant spray, which I don't get too excited about these days (tool post type diamond grinder).
But then.......I guess it all boils down to my first response, I'm getting lazy:-)
Matt
BottleBob wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
I worked at a place years ago and fought that battle. I was in charge of the CNC Swiss and we used a lot of drills under 1/16". So every time a drill would get dull, you'd find all the drills in the index were dull and the machine would be down for 15-30 minutes while the operator screwed around sharpening the drill by hand. Finally I grabbed up every dull drill and tossed them. Then I went to the boss and gave him a list of drills that we needed to buy. He blew a gasket. So I explained how much it was costing to do things his way vs. buying new or saving them up and sending them out for resharpening. He didn't like it but agreed.
A couple of years ago I was at a shop helping them get through some problems they were having with a machine we sold them. I solved all of the "problems" and got the job up and running. We ran most of the day and I did a little training as I figured it would help cut down on the machine's "problems". Anyway I come in the next morning and they tell me the POS machine won't hold length and they are sorting through the night shift production. So I run a part, check it and figure out the drill is pushing the part back in the collet. Check the collet tension, it's good. Check the drill point and its chewed up.
So I explain to them that tools get dull and they need to change them from time to time. The dull drill is pushing the stock back. Sheesh. The guy brings me another drill and right away I can see it's the wrong size. I tell him I need a 1/2" drill. It is he says. No it's not. Yes it is, I took it out of the 1/2" drawer. I measure it and it's 7/16". He says it's the last one. But he goes off to look for another anyway. He comes back with the 7/16 drill and a 1/4" boring bar. Tells me to bore the hole. How many parts do you have to make? 8,000 he says. (316 Stainless BTW) Ain't gonna happen with that frail little thing.
So I hand him the dull drill and tell him to sharpen it. He says they have no way of sharpening carbide drills. I'm looking at a grinder with diamond wheels right over his shoulder. Really? What's wrong with that grinder? He looks at me like I'm retarded and says you can't sharpen a carbide drill unless you have a special grinder. Pffft.
He goes off to phone around for a drill. Meanwhile I take the dull one, sharpen it and put it back in the lathe. By the time he comes back I'm running parts.
You don't even want to know how the rest of the week went with these clowns.
Before I leave for the day I tell him to dig up a couple of more dull drills and I'll sharpen them for him so the second shift guy will have spares. Don't have any. They throw them away! 1/2" solid carbide drills, right in the dumper. Good God.
And I'm a dumbass and our machine sucks. Go figure.
Dan:
Yikes! I wouldn't have believed it, if you hadn't relayed your experience.
I must live a sheltered life (machining wise). It's remarkable how some shops can even stay in business.
Sumitomo. Period. For holes that size in steel, nothing else even comes close. And when they get dull, go look at
KG
Leave the drill in the cat40 holder and walk over sharpen it while other tools are cycleing costs maybe 10 seconds of machine time and a couple minutes operator time.
BottleBob wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
I've seen some incredibly bad places. It's sad really. OTOH, some places are so good they make you feel like you've got a lot left to learn.
The place I'm talking about is struggling along. I knew they were going to be trouble when he said we bought a machine from so and so and it sucks and their support sucks. Same with so and so, etc. They were all pretty decent machines and companies.
The guy that owns the place has no real machining experience and doesn't pay enough to attract any. It was all clueless kids in there. He works crazy hours and AFAICT is barely scraping by. No wonder.
I can't make a guy into a machinist in a week or even four. I couldn't even get these guys to run good parts for more than a few hours. On another night an end mill chipped. The operator ran bad parts all night. No clue at all. I walk in the next day and it's "this POS machine won't make good parts." Feh.
I usually only get involved if there's problems. 99% of the time the problems are not machine related.
Bob, When I was an electrical contractor I actually got pretty good at hand grinding drills. I used to do maybe 6 full fractional indexes at a time. Once I was at a customers site and they were cussing about not being able to drill some holes in structural steel. I looked at their drill bits then sharpened up a hand full. Every time I'd go back there they'd have a box of drills waiting for me!
Gary H. Lucas
Dan:
Just curious, in a case such as you're describing, do you ever consider suggesting a competitor and just not sell them one of your machines due to the bad mouthing and multiple service calls $$$ you'll no-doubt get from a customer like that?
=========== Thanks for the link --- that's a drill pointer!
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
BottleBob wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:
It's always hard to know for sure the first time dealing with someone so I usually quote. Not always attractive terms and pricing though.
The second time around it's a whole different deal. While legally you can not "no quote" the machine, you can make your terms unattractive or not agree to their terms.
Requiring 100% down before the machine ships usually kills their interest. Always be wary of anyone that demands a turnkey machine with acceptance on their floor with none of their money tied up in the deal. I usually ask for machine acceptance at our facility, a progress payment, then final acceptance on their floor. If they don't agree to that they are probably theives that will string you out and milk you dry.
I'm continuously amazed by the machine business. Terms and acceptance conditions are often poorly defined, dealers are lax about getting down payments, proper paperwork, filing UCC's, and demanding payment. Buyers are often equally ignorant about understanding the terms, financing ooptions, and what exactly they are supposed to be getting.
Take the term "FOB" for instance. The machine is damaged in shipping and virtually every customer will want to send it back. Even though they agreed to FOB point of origin. So they own it the minute it crosses over the truck.
Then there are salesman who when asked to include freight, say sure. Then the customer will write up the order with something like "FOB XYZ Manucturng Co dock" or "FOB destination". Sorry, not while I'm watching the store. "FOB Origin, Freight Prepayed" is the right way to do it. There's no good reason for me to take responsibility for the load.
Also big deals tend to make salesman and managers lose their cool. A while back we were quoting a project worth just under $3 million. I have history with this particular company and they have a well known terrible reputation for not paying (owned by a lawyer no less). So I wouldn't budge off of 20% down non refundable, 70% after acceptance at our facility, balance due upon acceptance at their facility. They wanted nothing down, net 90 days after acceptance. I might have been born yesterday but it was early in the day.
I had the customer screaming, the salesman, the sales manager, the president of the dealer. The customer threatened to sue. Heh, good luck with that. They called my boss, my bosses boss, etc... We wouldn't budge and lost the order. Fast forward 20 months and the lucky builder that got the order had not been paid one cent, had engineers in the place night and day non stop. They got the sheriff and repo'd the machines. What did they get for their efforts? Sued by the customer, and a pile of used machines that ran production 24/7 for 18 months.
No thanks.
Of course they came back to us desperate for machines. New terms: 100% down, non refundable. Didn't get the order again. Damn...
Dan:
As "Dry" as this subject is, you have the knack of making it sound exciting. You should write a book on the ins & outs of machine purchasing.
========== Any way we can get you to run the Fed until things get straightened out?
Unka' George [George McDuffee]
------------------------------------------- He that will not apply new remedies, must expect new evils: for Time is the greatest innovator: and if Time, of course, alter things to the worse, and wisdom and counsel shall not alter them to the better, what shall be the end?
Francis Bacon (1561-1626), English philosopher, essayist, statesman. Essays, "Of Innovations" (1597-1625).
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