Re: How to tell if its time to replace a guy?

wrote: <snip>


</snip>
Some people will never be a machinist (or operator). This doesn't mean they are a bad person, just that they are in the wrong line of work.
Some people have the basic skills and talent but don't know any better.
Some people know better but don't care.
Some people enjoy creating chaos around them.
The trick is to identify which you have, as the remedial action (from the point of the company) is different in each case.
If you are not doing so, it will be critical to keep a log of "problems" so that *SPECIFIC* incidents can be cited and addressed.
When you have a list of 5 or 10 *SPECIFIC* incidents, it may then be time to set down with the owner/super and problem employee, and have a discussion a frank discussion citing specific acts/omissions, with a written "improvement plan," which may well include additional technical instruction and review of "how we do things in this shop (and why)." The other side of this is the detail of instruction and training the "problem" employee has been given, and the existance/amount of detail of the "operation sheets" that he is [should be] working off of. ==>You can't expect good results if the instructions are vague or ambiguous.<=[Do you have a written general shop SOP detailing housekeeping, etc.?]
for some possible remedial training [if this is where the problem is] http://tinyurl.com/p9rb3ql http://tinyurl.com/qamd2vz http://tinyurl.com/q72u72g http://tinyurl.com/nar6798 http://tinyurl.com/mgk64j3
for EDM background http://tinyurl.com/ohwa6yw http://tinyurl.com/oucmmcx http://tinyurl.com/nv4zoly
operation sheets http://tinyurl.com/n6njxjw
your edm machine manufacturer may have instructional material/classes, for example http://tinyurl.com/paqbu3h http://tinyurl.com/ou3hsjy
It is expensive to replace an employee, and you can't be sure the new one is any better than the old one. Remedial training [if this is where the problem lies] is almost always cheaper.
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload


yep, thats a good idea.if you dont write it down, then your just picking on someone picking stuff out of your head. I should of started a list last week.
As far as teaching him, he is almost 50, and we are talking milling. Not to be a downer, but to expect someone that age to suddenly change the core way they work is silly. I wouldnt.
No matter what is achieved, he reverts back a day or 2 later. And I keep hearing 20 years this, 20 years that. Problem is at that age it should be 30 years experience, wtf happened to 10 years?
I expected this to a certain degree, what if they had some guy from an edm/wire dept come over to milling to fix your job. I sure as frig wouldnt be bragging about how long ive been doing it. I'd prolly quit.
I went thru one machine totally, maint, tweak, automation, etc... then I wrote a list of 10 things to do every morning, like fill spindle oil, clean spindle, etc... The job has gotten so easy a caveman could do it.
But for some reason, people like stress, mess, and dont value the pride you get from being kickass. So it reverts back. The best part is I will not participate! So this guy turns the simplicity of it all into a stressed out klusterfuk, people all over pissed at each other, everyone blaming everyone else, and im sitting in the next mill all quiet, spanking out parts. The contrast is there. If he cant see it, cya. I fix processes, not people. I have NO CLUE what to do with people.
We all need jobs, but to get 20-22hr to run a mill thats processed so far down an infant could do it, and fail at it consistantly is bullshit. Nobody deserves a job so much they can fail and not worry about it. I see people cutting lawns for 10 bux an hour with more skill and pride in their work.
Maybe the problem is the people doing the hiring are low on the tech side. A few simple questions could weed out 99% of the rifraf. Example: are you from up north lol
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
alt.machines.cnc the following:

    Sounds like they are hiring "ambitious" people, go getter, self starters, enthusiastic people who give 110.1%!     When what are needed are lazy folks who want to get this out of here with the least amount of "work", and recognize that you can't make scrap fast enough to show a profit, and until good product goes out the door, paychecks don't come in. Etc, etc. -- pyotr filipivich "With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Whether 20 or 30 years, there is a difference between having 20 years experience and one year of experience 20 times.
N. B. ==>A word of caution -- if he is in his 50s be wary of age discrimination claims.<=>

That's why they have check lists for pilots (and cave men still can't/won't do it). Do you have a similar work area check list, and is time provided for housekeeping?
FWIW this is the type of process documentation [which must be expanded] for ISO 9000 certification http://tinyurl.com/26kujt which is becoming increasingly required for export sales. While your company may not want to go for ISO9000 certification, the requirements and documentation can be helpful for standardizing your operation and a point of ready reference. http://tinyurl.com/cb49cph http://tinyurl.com/259eka9 http://tinyurl.com/pssuhwq

Indeed they do, and this frequently leads to problems for the organization. One of the worst manifestations is the person who creates problems so he can be a hero when he solves the problem they created. Management is frequently to blame for this if they reward problem solving and ignore problem prevention. Like the old catch phrase has it -- Excitement has no place on the *PROFITABLE* shop floor -- you want excitement? Join the volleyball team.
I just had a webinar announcement on managing "negativity" and "problem employees" hit my inbox which may be of interest.
http://tinyurl.com/pow4zzy Tuesday, November 18, 2014 @ 1:00pm Eastern, Length 70 Minutes "Are you confronted with employees who complain, criticize, or try to stir up trouble? Do you often feel frustrated and helpless? You may assume that there is no way to change
contain the damage. However, tolerating such harmful behaviors is definitely NOT the smartest strategy.
Chronic negativity frequently starts with only one or two employees, but it can quickly infect an entire department. When this happens, the inevitable result is reduced productivity, damaged morale, and eventually increased turnover, so wise managers try to nip negativity in the bud."

He just may have been in the wrong line of work for the last 20/30 years. Not all of us are lucky enough to get into the line of work for which we are [best] suited.

Indeed screening/apptitude tests should be used, and many of these are available. In many cases your state employment service has an entire battery of these tests and will administer these for free, and can provide pre-screened job candidates.
There is no point in putting someone who is a "people person" in a position where there are no people. In the previous post I had some URLs (with some more below). In general these tests can't tell who will be successful in a given position, but these can help avoid trying to pound a square peg in a round hole, when they would be much happier and more productive in a sales position. http://tinyurl.com/c2oh74o http://tinyurl.com/qe3m3qs http://tinyurl.com/o6ybysj
A word of caution -- these are pencil and paper tests. You should also include a basic performance test such as asking the candidate to mike several random gage pins as close as they can, while providing them with several measuring instruments such as a vernier caliper, cheap mike, good mike in case with check standard, etc. and carefully observing what they use and how they treat the tools.
If possible try to get a look at their tool box. If they don't have one, or its beat to crap and filled with hammers and vice grips it tells you one thing, but if its filled with quality tools in good condition, albeit well-worn, with some they made themselves, it tells you something else.
I am sure there are many other posters in this thread with the same problems, some shop owners, and some who just care, so let us know how things work out. Good Luck!
--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload


Nothing to worry about there, im older than him. hes in his mid 40's. too old to change unfortunitely.

Well...All Ive done so far is: on the first machine I finished, I put a paper on the table under plastic that has a list of things to do in the morning, and at the end of the day. The morning is typically maint, and the end of the day is a cleaning list. It's very short, but if followed all will be good.

I hear ya! the best simplist example of that is cleaning machines. people will create a disaster mess in their work area, and it will go unchecked untill cockroaches show up. Then...the owner/boss/etc/// comes down on them, and they spend a day cleaning, and now it looks awesome! Then you see their pride finally coming out. But....?..............its their mess? they made it that way, as opposed to operating in a clean environment at all times. How can you feel heroish over making your area nice, when it should of been like that all along?
Management is frequently

good point. I never heard that out loud.
Like the old catch phrase has it --

Im gonna pass this on. "Strategies for saving your sanity in a toxic organization" sweeet!!!

WELL< lol if we could do that we would never hire the wrong guy. The toolbox says it all!
If they

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polytechforum.com is a website by engineers for engineers. It is not affiliated with any of manufacturers or vendors discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.