There may actually be something to this, although heat may not be the real problem. A while ago a group of electrical inspectors did a survey of GFCIs in their area and they found receptacle types did a lot better than breaker types. It may just be that the down stream GFCI is farther from incoming powerline hits and they dissipate a bit by then, enough where the onboard MOV can help. That is still an erroding resource tho. Tom may be along and talk about stopping that stuff at the service. Power hit is what blows most electronics in the home, either in one ball of smoke or in a thousand little bites...
At first when I started reading this I was thinking that it was a joke. Not so. This guy is serious. His box used a furnas contactor. Noted for being the cheapest contactor on the market. Not something I would use. He is using a $30~ single pole gfci switch. How is this going to protect both phases.
He says it is UL listed, yet there are no UL lables. Which are required to be plastered in full view.
I have never heard of a gfci breaker going bad or out of calabrarion. There would be a lot of manufactures that would be interested in this concept. As for using a gfci fed by an regular breaker, I am not familar with that concept either. I helped my brother connect his spa with a 50 amp gfci breaker. Ran a full sized ground from the service to the spa. Grounded the metal parts and the unit works fine. I think this is hype. I will be interested to read the rest of the responses.
I looked at the picture again. Runs in my mind that grounds for pools and spas must be unbroken from source to use. This panel would seem to violate that rule. There is nothing to stop you from removing the ground conductor from the panel. I will have to dig out my code book and do some reading.
| I looked at the picture again. Runs in my mind that grounds for pools and | spas must be unbroken from source to use. This panel would seem to violate | that rule. There is nothing to stop you from removing the ground conductor | from the panel. I will have to dig out my code book and do some reading.
Unbroken as in no splices allowed? If so, how do you accomplish that?
| At first when I started reading this I was thinking that it was a joke. Not | so. This guy is serious. His box used a furnas contactor. Noted for being | the cheapest contactor on the market. Not something I would use. He is using | a $30~ single pole gfci switch. How is this going to protect both phases.
Good equation about both phases.
| He says it is UL listed, yet there are no UL lables. Which are required to | be plastered in full view.
He probably thinks that because the parts are UL listed, his device inherits it. Of course that is wrong.
| I have never heard of a gfci breaker going bad or out of calabrarion. There | would be a lot of manufactures that would be interested in this concept. | As for using a gfci fed by an regular breaker, I am not familar with that | concept either. | I helped my brother connect his spa with a 50 amp gfci breaker. Ran a full | sized ground from the service to the spa. Grounded the metal parts and the | unit works fine. | I think this is hype. | I will be interested to read the rest of the responses.
Well, I know I have been able to cause many GFCI devices to false trip via a ham radio HT. I've also heard of someone who was able to do so with a cell phone. I speculate that the problem is insufficient RF blockage (well, none, actually) and the RF is coming in to the sensor in common mode, so it will look like leakage. What concerns me more than false tripping, though, is that in the devices I have tested (not the breakers, just the receptacle types), as long as the RF was present, the device continue to activate the solenoid to trip the device, making a loud buzzing sound. I understand the solenoid is not rated for continuous duty (in a normal earth leakage case, the circuit interruption would cut the leakage current and cease activating teh device) and could burn up under this stress. I believe such devices should utilize stored mechanical energy to move the contacts open, and the solenoid should be there to release that energy as well as be powered on the load side so it disengages regardless of continuous RF.
Some day I'll get around to testing out various RF trapping on and around GFCI devices (on both line and load side) to see what can correct it.
Just not true. The equipment ground from the panel must be insulated and bonding grid between metal componants (rebar, light niches, ladder etc) must be 8ga copper. The normal splicing methods are OK but underwater connections, like the lug on the light niche, must be sealed in a listed potting compound.
I misspoke, (or was full of shit depending on your perspective). It is true that the equipment ground to a wet niche light must be unbroken from the panelboard to the light junction box ground bus. That is not true for the pumps, blowers, pool cover rollers or other equipment. Those EGCs can be run normally
I stay in hotels in the US from time to time. For amusement, I usually try the test button on the bathroom outlet and on the hair drier. I would guess that over the last
4 years, I've probably come across about 4 which didn't work.
In the UK, I test mine quite often. I've had one portable one which just stopped working. I don't recall ever coming across one in a panel which had stopped working.
That is an opinion. Furnas was at one time the contactor of choice for nearly ALL spa manufacturers in the US, but they lost their market position when several cheaper companies released products made in 3rd world countries. I would rather have a Furnas contactor (now Siemens) than one made in Bhutan or Zimbabwe as some of them now are. The latest trend I see is for the spa controller manufacturers to use 2 separate cheap cheap little 1 pole PC board mounted contactors. I can only imagine what the heat is doing to those boards now.
I don't ssee how you can tell that from the picture. As I see it, it is a 2 pole device, intended for 220V service. Just because it LOOKS the same as a 110V unit doesn't mean it is. And they are not that cheap.
Again, I don't see how you can be so sure. I see what looks to be a UL logo on the lower right corner of the inset view, applied to the dead-front panel that was obviously removed for the blown-up picture. For that matter, it could be prominently displayed on the outside of the box, they just don't show it. It would take some major kahunas to claim UL on something that doesn't have it. UL does not take that lightly, especially on anything associated woith pools and spas.
This is a well established fact. Not necessarilly for the reasons implied in that website, but the fact remains that ALL residential circuit breakers have a very limited number of mechanical operations, unless they specifically carry the HACR designation. HACR (Heating Air Cond. & Refrigeration) designation means that it is intended to be used on a regular basis as a switching device. Regular circuit breakers are NOT. The testing standards for CBs require that it interrupt a fault, and turn back on ONCE. Only once! Remember, they were originally intended to just replace a fuse with a device that could be reset. The manufacturers downplay this of course, but that is all they are required to do. When you add a GF trip to that CB, and you get a lot of nuisance trips, the breaker part of it can, and frequently does, wear out. Then you have to replace the entire CB for $125+++. Do the manufacturers know about this? YOU BET THEY DO, andd they laugh all the way to the bank. Why have you not heard? Probably because in your lifetime, you may purchase 3 or 4 breakers if you are the average DIY homeowner. Ask a contractor how many he replaces per year.
The calibration issue is somewhat valid as well. Most CBs use a bimetal element for the I^2t thermal sensing, and a magnetic plunger mechanism for the instantaneous short circuit sensing. Constant jarring from niusance trips can and does throw the plunger mechanism out of whack, and may damage the mechanism used by both to trip the breaker contacts (it is a system of bars, springs and latches).
Then there is the corrosion factor on the bimetal strips. By placing the CB close to the spa, as required by code, you are exposing the mechanism to more corrosion than if it were in the house panel as he recommends.
Done all the time. Bathrooms, kitchens, outdoor receptacles etc. etc. etc. What about this is so strange, is it just that YOU never thought of it?
Good for you, and of course it works fine for lots of other people as well, myself included. Had I known however, that this product existed when I hooked up my spa, I would definately have used it.
Can you show me any example of sales literature that is NOT hype? Does that automatically make it untrue? Do you always ignore the sales literature for the products you buy and go straight to the schematic diagrams for your information? If so, what is the main fuse rating of your car's electrical system? How many watts does your monitor consume? Better yet, do you truly believe that the water in your spa is sterile just because you put chlorine in it?
I think the issue might be that GFCI breakers may get more use than GFCI outlets. I occasionally use the breakers, can't recall the last time a GFCI outlet tripped.
| I think the issue might be that GFCI breakers may get more use than GFCI | outlets. I occasionally use the breakers, can't recall the last time a GFCI | outlet tripped.
The only time I've ever had a GFCI trip was keying-up a ham 2 meter HT nearby. And the GFCI wasn't pleased at all as it continuosly energized the actuator in it as long as the RF field was present. Most likely the RF was induced on the wires and ran along in common mode, so it looked like leakage. Given the neutral was (most likely) not opened, but is a part of the current transformer/sensor, the continued RF made it continue to try to trip. It obviously didn't know it had done so already. And it was rather loud (get your attention real fast loud). One of these days I'll set up a test in a safe place and run the thing that way to see how long it takes before it burns out.
I have seen defects on US-made products also. However, the fact is that most of the recalled electrical devices over the past ten years or so (switches, receptacles, ext cords, lighting fixtures, etc) are made in China. UL is working with US Customs because they found cases where the UL labels were forgeries or unauthorized.
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