I haven't decided if I want to cast vast quantities of bullets. Lots of
pros and cons here. Lead scares me and I would want to make sure it's
extremely safe. But, it's cheap to get all the stuff needed to produce
quality parts. I figure <$250. I would want to do 9mm, .38, and .45 in six
cavity Lee molds, a 20# Lee pot and the other odds and ends. Any casting
advice? The cheapest cast, sized and lubed bullets that I can find are
$29/k. Of course, my time is donated.
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:09:00 -0500, Buerste wrote:
Are those $29/k bullets good enough for you? How does that compare to
the cost of the lead and fuel, and the upkeep on the tools? How many are
you _really_ going to make in a lifetime, and how does the capital
expense pencil out?
It would be interesting to see just what sort of safety precautions you'd
need to take with lead casting -- gloves and clothing, for sure, but what
about all the residue from cleanup, splashes, etc. -- and does hot lead
vaporize or otherwise go into the air (I've heard it does, but unless
there's some chemical reaction going on I just can't see the stuff
evaporating).
For anything I want to acquire, the make/buy decision always boils down
to the following three factors:
1: I can get it cheaper that way, at least at a reasonable quality.
2: I can get it better that way, at least at a reasonable price.
3: I just plain like doing it.
-- and never underestimate the power of #3.
I don't have a horse in the race, so feel free to ignore me. I would think
that at three cents a bullet, even donating your time, you won't break even
unless you are automating the process. Six cavity moulds aren't going to be
economic for large quantities. If it's a labour of love or a way to get rid of
undocumented DU stocks, ok, but not as an economic proposition for any
quantity of bullets you can get from the store.
This opinion was worth almost as much as it cost :-)
regards
Mark Rand
RTFM
Cast bullets, if you get the lead for free..are basicly free. Labor
excepted. Once you have amortized the cost of the equipment..the only
expense one has are gas checks and bullet lube..gas checks being used
primarily for rifle bullets and bullet lube is cheap..really cheap. And
one can use various shake and bake compounds..dump the bullets in a bag,
add a half teaspoon of powdered wonder lube..and shake. This of course
doesnt size them..but most moulds turn out bullets that are pretty close
to the proper size already. Lee is very good about that.
Time..is something that only the individual can calculate a value on.
On the other hand..when a box of jacketed bullets cost $0.21-$1.00 x
100....labor costs are pretty small.
Most serious shooters cast their own, simply due to the cost
savings..which when you are shooting 35k a year down range..can be
excessive.
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
At 200-400/mo. the economics don't factor in either way. It's something to
do and there's a bit of pride involved. I used to cast .38s 30 years ago.
It was fun and we didn't have any money. I think every reloader does SOME
casting at one time or another. I do worry about lead fumes and burns.
I worry about the cost #1
The fumes are easily removed with a small fan. The burns..simply
toughens ya hup a bit....<G>
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
Lead is only dangerous when it's moving fast! Lead is way too overrated
as a source of all evil. Its oxides are far more dangerous, but in the
scheme of poisons only one of them really makes the grade. And that
particular oxide ( Pb3O4) is not easily produced in quantities in normal
air atmospheres. Lead has become a blame-all in company with CO2, Ozone,
republicans, democrats and GW Bush.
cheers
T.Alan
Six gang moulds are unweildy as hell and slow to use. You would
actually be better off with Lee 2 cavity moulds and cast with 3 of them
at a time. So you would be casting 3 different bullets at the same
time, 2 bullets with each dump. A good used Lyman sizer luber should
cost you ..hummm $50...er...$75 if you buy on Ebay....
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=bullet+sizer&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Sizing dies are ....$20 each (drop me an email and ask for used dies)
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+sizing+dies&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+sizer&_osacat=0
and a nose punch should cost...$5
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+top+punch&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+sizer&_osacat=0
'
Moulds of course are $20ish new for Lee...
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+mould+lee&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+mould&_osacat=0
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=lee+bullet+mold&_frs=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m359
And of course..the melting pot..which you can build in your own shop
quite cheaply, using a large bullplug and a gas ring. Im sure you have
natural gas in your shop..
Though if you want to buy one...$75 on ebay
http://sporting-goods.shop.ebay.com/Outdoor-Sports-/159043/i.html?_nkw=lead+pot&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282
Close to $250 for the entire setup for all 3 calibers
And if you can get wheel weights for free...thats all you will ever
need.
Once you have the pot and sizer..all you will ever need is a mould,
sizer die and top punch. $50 or less.
This assumes you cannot find them locally for far less. And Ill bet you
can. Craigslist For Sale and Craigslist Wanted can bring all manner of
fun stuff to the top....
Now..Ive got 50 some moulds in various sizes and pick up odd ball ones
from time to time..but then..I load for some 53 different cartridges
..shrug
Some cartridges can be shot easily with cast bullets, some will take
some work. 7mm Magnum takes some work in most guns. Though I have one
that will punch an antimony alloy bullet out at 2600 fps with no
leading. Its not an original barrel..and no idea who produced it.
3006..I can average 2400 fps with nearly all of mine..and so forth.
If you are serious...Ill dig in and see what I can spare.
Btw...the old Lyman pots are very very good. Bottom pour of course.
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=bullet+sizer&_sacat=See-All-Categories
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+sizing+dies&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+sizer&_osacat=0
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+top+punch&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+sizer&_osacat=0
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=bullet+mould+lee&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=bullet+mould&_osacat=0
http://sporting-goods.shop.ebay.com/Outdoor-Sports-/159043/i.html?_nkw=lead+pot&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282
Have you seen that tool that makes gas checks from pop cans?
I saw one some year ago..and read varying reviews on the gas checks.
I rather like the Horneday gas checks...they have thicker rims, so when
you size one on..they actually dig into the lead, rather than simply
"hope" that they stay on. Ive fired far far too many of the Lymans and
Stars and others that didnt stay on..and Im afraid didnt stay on in the
cartridge prior to fireing either.
There are several gas check "makers"
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/forum/view_topic.php?id '08&forum_idI
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?tW99
Ive heard good and marginal in reference to the Corbin
http://www.corbins.com/gascheck.htm
Some others...
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?pq1297
Ive not kept up on the various makers over the years..but Im going to
review everything that I can over the next little while..and maybe Ill
crank out something to make my own gas checks with. Shrug..it cant be
all that tough..and I do have a 5 ton arbor press <G>
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
for what it's worth, I still have a line on some lead and lead alloys that I
can get to you for a little under $2 per pound delivered in 6- pound batches
Don't eat, smoke, or lick your hands and you will be fine.
Seriously, the lead isn't flying of the pot trying to kill you at normal casting
temps.
Collect dross and put in a can with a lid. I keep a tub of alcohol wipes to
keep my hands
clean after handling lead.
In general, use good hygiene.
At your age you are going to die from something else anyway.
Wes
Before you invest in equipment contact your local gun club or range
master. Find a member that is already casting their own. Get friendly
and generous.
Get a sense of the physical requirements to casting. Like reloading it
takes patients and concentration. Distractions can be painful.
Once you find a rhythm, bullets will multiply rapidly. So will fatigue
which will lead you to bad pours and other frustrations.
Think 60 pours per hour if solo and faster if you have help to sort good
cast from bad and re-melt your defects.
I don't know what sources you have locally, but your investment target
seems low. Three molds alone will run at least $50 a piece used for
decent 6 cavity molds for popular calibers. Then a sizing press with
inserts for each caliber. You will want a heater block for the hard
lubes to flow into the sizing press dies.
While Lee molds will cast a decent bullet, they get temperamental during
long casting sessions. I prefer steel molds of 2 to 4 cavity when
available.
Melting the lead is the least of your worries. I have worked with lead
as a hobby for 25+ years. Ventilation is key. Work outside or under a
lean two and stay up wind of the melt pot and have a way to control the
temp. If your concerned about toxicity, get your doctor to test you
before you start and monitor your level yearly.
I'm sure there are other things to consider, but I'm tired and going to bed.
Good luck and good shooting
Jim Vrzal
Holiday, Fl.
You can use cheap wheelweights for .38 and .45 target loads. 9mm is
more finicky, depending on what gun you have, since bore sizes range
from .354" to .360" or greater and the round runs at a lot higher
pressures. Lee molds are exactly on size, you can fire the bullets
without sizing if you use their liquid Alox lube. Biggest thing is a
source of lead alloy, you'll save little money if you have to buy lead
alloys retail. There's little lead pipe on the scrap market these
days, tin beer cooler coils are things of legend. If you gotta, you
can use mostly tin lead-free solder to add a little tin to the mix,
although the hardware-store solder these days has a lot more stuff
than tin in it. Keep the zinc ones out of your wheelweight
collection, just one turns a pot full of metal into an uncastable
mess.
I've used 6-cavity Lee molds, I can usually out-produce those using
dual-cavity molds and they're cheaper. Lee molds aren't really suited
for producing "vast quantities", just one of those draw-backs of
aluminum molds. You have to follow directions exactly, lube what they
say to lube and smoke what they say to smoke and how. If you can't/
won't follow directions, you'll turn the mold into scrap. Iron molds
aren't as fragile, but take longer to get up to heat and can take
awhile to break in. Thorough degreasing helps, a can of brake cleaner
is a must. You have to take care of the iron molds, they'll rust in a
heart-beat if put away without some sort of coating. Slam-bang
operation will turn any of them into scrap. If the mold is up to
temp, bullets should just drop out after opening the sprue cutter with
a gloved hand. I've got a couple old Lyman molds that need a tap at
the handle pivot to get the bullets to drop, they're old designs with
very square grooves.
Multi-cavity molds produce better-quality bullets if used with a
ladle, not a bottom-pour pot. I can run through the cycle faster and
the finished product is a lot closer in weight spread.
Cheap purchased cast bullets are an illusion, you've got no control
over the alloy used, hardest possible isn't necessarily the best, and
no control over the diameter. Unless you're very lucky, you'll have
to make acquaintance with a Lewis Lead Remover sooner than you'd want.
Casting is best done outside, lead is volatile and you don't want the
smoke from fluxing inside. I had my blood tested recently after
decades of casting and gallery shooting, it came out around 3
picograms, over 10 is cause to worry. So if you work in a well-
ventilated area, don't eat donuts while casting and take the normal
precautions of washing up before handling food and such, lead isn't
that much of a hazard. Some kind of non-flammable floor covering is
needed, I like a thin steel sheet since I can just up-end it and
capture most of the splash and escaped sprues for reuse. On concrete,
the stuff flows into every crack and you have to pry the stuff loose.
Don't work hunched over the pot, get the thing up to a height where
you can see things without strain.
A leather welding apron and gauntlets come in handy, wear high-top
leather shoes and cotton pants and shirt.
Budget for a lead thermometer, without that you're just guessing. If
you use Lee molds and your bore size matches the mold, you don't
really need a lubrisizer to start with as long as you use the liquid
Alox. This time of year, used equipment is frequently found at the
gun shows, make sure you look at any used molds thoroughly for burrs
and abuse. Small lead pots are a pain, go for at least a 20lb model.
If you are lucky, you can sometimes find a plumber's firepot and
crucibles for cheap. That's where the thermometer comes into play
more.
Stan
You can use cheap wheelweights for .38 and .45 target loads. 9mm is
more finicky, depending on what gun you have, since bore sizes range
from .354" to .360" or greater and the round runs at a lot higher
pressures. Lee molds are exactly on size, you can fire the bullets
without sizing if you use their liquid Alox lube. Biggest thing is a
source of lead alloy, you'll save little money if you have to buy lead
alloys retail. There's little lead pipe on the scrap market these
days, tin beer cooler coils are things of legend. If you gotta, you
can use mostly tin lead-free solder to add a little tin to the mix,
although the hardware-store solder these days has a lot more stuff
than tin in it. Keep the zinc ones out of your wheelweight
collection, just one turns a pot full of metal into an uncastable
mess.
I've used 6-cavity Lee molds, I can usually out-produce those using
dual-cavity molds and they're cheaper. Lee molds aren't really suited
for producing "vast quantities", just one of those draw-backs of
aluminum molds. You have to follow directions exactly, lube what they
say to lube and smoke what they say to smoke and how. If you can't/
won't follow directions, you'll turn the mold into scrap. Iron molds
aren't as fragile, but take longer to get up to heat and can take
awhile to break in. Thorough degreasing helps, a can of brake cleaner
is a must. You have to take care of the iron molds, they'll rust in a
heart-beat if put away without some sort of coating. Slam-bang
operation will turn any of them into scrap. If the mold is up to
temp, bullets should just drop out after opening the sprue cutter with
a gloved hand. I've got a couple old Lyman molds that need a tap at
the handle pivot to get the bullets to drop, they're old designs with
very square grooves.
Multi-cavity molds produce better-quality bullets if used with a
ladle, not a bottom-pour pot. I can run through the cycle faster and
the finished product is a lot closer in weight spread.
Cheap purchased cast bullets are an illusion, you've got no control
over the alloy used, hardest possible isn't necessarily the best, and
no control over the diameter. Unless you're very lucky, you'll have
to make acquaintance with a Lewis Lead Remover sooner than you'd want.
Casting is best done outside, lead is volatile and you don't want the
smoke from fluxing inside. I had my blood tested recently after
decades of casting and gallery shooting, it came out around 3
picograms, over 10 is cause to worry. So if you work in a well-
ventilated area, don't eat donuts while casting and take the normal
precautions of washing up before handling food and such, lead isn't
that much of a hazard. Some kind of non-flammable floor covering is
needed, I like a thin steel sheet since I can just up-end it and
capture most of the splash and escaped sprues for reuse. On concrete,
the stuff flows into every crack and you have to pry the stuff loose.
Don't work hunched over the pot, get the thing up to a height where
you can see things without strain.
A leather welding apron and gauntlets come in handy, wear high-top
leather shoes and cotton pants and shirt.
Budget for a lead thermometer, without that you're just guessing. If
you use Lee molds and your bore size matches the mold, you don't
really need a lubrisizer to start with as long as you use the liquid
Alox. This time of year, used equipment is frequently found at the
gun shows, make sure you look at any used molds thoroughly for burrs
and abuse. Small lead pots are a pain, go for at least a 20lb model.
If you are lucky, you can sometimes find a plumber's firepot and
crucibles for cheap. That's where the thermometer comes into play
more.
Stan
************************************************
Thanks! Good info. I've slugged all but the 9mm XD-9. I was just reading
about alloy vs. pressure in Lee's book "Modern Reloading". Although the
book is like a big advertisement for Lee Precision, it has a wealth of good
information and quite a bit on casting.
Depends on whether they're pure lead or alloyed. Usually battery
plates aren't worth messing with, too much oxide in them and reducing
that isn't a home basement occupation. Not sure about the
interconnects. If it can be easily gouged with a thumbnail, it's
probably pretty close to pure lead. It would need some tin to make
decent bullets for anything other than BP shooting. A hardness tester
would be handy to have in a case like that.
I'm not sure if the big industrial batteries like that use calcium
like the current crop of car batteries or not. Calcium in the alloy
can lead to poisonous outgassing of the dross when it gets damp. Not
something anyone needs. Safest answer would be not to use anything
related to lead-acid batteries for home casting. Swap for a supply of
scrap wheelweights at the recyclers.
Stan
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 12:47:39 -0800 (PST), snipped-for-privacy@prolynx.com wrote:
I agree 100%
One should note also..that zinc can be cast into bullets suitable for
SOME cartridges
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
Most..most batteries use a high calcium lead alloy and they tend to turn
to shit when melting. Calcium is not a particularly good alloy for
bullet making. and the body tends to confuse lead with calcium..so
doesnt do your bones much good in large doeses. Plus it makes the
bullets a tad brittle.
But hey...melt down 20 lbs and see what they do when cast into bullets
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth."
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