On Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:49:32 -0800 (PST), electrician
Man has learned how to gather an excess of electrons such that given a
load (conduction path, dipshit), said electrons will flow until balance
is established between the storage medium and ground, or the return of an
isolated storage medium. Such differences are ALWAYS with respect to
ground or a pseudo-ground within the device itself. The mechanism is
electrostatic pressure. When one strips the electrons away from a
lattice, there is a huge attraction developed in that medium. That
difference is referred to by those of us with a grasp of this realm, as
In man's control of this, we are able to gather continuous streams of
electrons and HUGE differences between said sources and ground or
'returns'. In such cases, we are able to utilize the continuous stream
such that we do not even refer to it as being electrostatic any longer
because we can make HUGE amounts available, which the electrostatic world
does not get far. Even something as large as a lighting bolt cannot
perform much work in our continuous realm, but the instantaneous work
performed was fairly great... for a lightning bolt. We, however,
need a LOT more force for a much longer duration.
So, if you have no grasp of the four forces, which it is fairly obvious
that you do not, you will not have any inkling of what is taking place.
Essentially, you display a glaring lack of aptitude for this particular
If there were no gravity our universe would be really messy. So why
is there this attraction between bodies of matter?
Why do so called electron shells not quite full exert attraction for
that extra electron?
And back to the beginning, why does current flow?
Many systems are based on assumptions that have no explanations.
No one here can answer these simple questions.
Oh yes you can describe mathematical models that describe how they
work, but still cannot tell us why they work.
So God is the answer and no one here can prove there is no God.
Nor can anyone answer where God came from, or where where ever he may
have come from, came from, etc.
The only answer is there was no beginning and no end.
God, energy and matter that makes up this universe have always been
The beginning connects to the end.
Our feeble minds have to climb outside the box and accept an entirely
new perception of time and space to accept a concept of
no beginning and no end and the infinite presence of matter, energy,
As can be seen here this concept is confusing and angers the
It challenges their self esteem and forces them to a humbly accept
that they are just plain stupid.
I don't want to go anywhere with you. Maybe dimbulb will be your gay
lover. he even uses female names so you can hide it from your family
Just so you'll shut up, current flows because of a difference in
potential at two points in a circuit.
I kill filed crossposts from your alt.usenet.kooks group years ago,
so I won't see your ignorant crap when you go home.
Lead free solder is Belgium's version of 'Hold my beer and watch this!'
The following posters are the same entity:
Capt. Cave Man
This entity is commonly know as DimBulb or AlwaysWrong for appropriate
reasons - ignore it.
A full list (over 70 sock puppets) is at:
(Note this URL is on 3 lines and has to be combined.)
Also ignoring electrician, that leaves some serious posters.
No one yet can explain why current flows. Try a Fourier heat flow
equation. The Mechanical people figured it out long before Charles
Ohm. Ohms simply copied the heat flow equation.
Ohms' law should be called Fourier's law.
But the electric wave itself is being caused by the electrons in the
Electrons in the upstream part of the waveguide surfaces are producing
fields, and those fields travel along to cause the electrons further
downstream to bunch up, which produces fields too. Electrons act
sort of like dominoes, but they communicate forces via their
electrostatic fields rather than via direct contact. Don't forget
that, if there were no movable electrons in the waveguide (if it was
insulating,) then this "domino effect" would be gone, and there would
be no guided waves.
The usual analogy for a conductor is a pipe full of beads. If you
move one bead, it pushes on the next, which pushes on the next, and a
wave moves along the column of beads. (That wave's a sound wave.
That's what sound waves *are.*)
So ask yourself this: are the beads being moved by upstream beads...
OR are they actually being dragged by the sound wave? The answer
is ...yes! The sound wave is just one bead pushing upon the next one
in line. And when one bead pushes on another, the name for that is
In a waveguide (and in any conductor,) the guided waves are really
just the fields of upstream electrons causing downstream electrons to
move and bunch together. And then the fields of those bunched
electrons in turn will affect the electrons further downstream. The
only big difference between this and a row of plastic spheres is that,
with EM fields, one electron can push on all the surrounding
electrons, and not just the nearest neighbor. (Of course it does
push more weakly on the more distant ones.)
Here's another way to say it: electromagnetic waves can move through
space as spreading ripples. But if you provide a long column of
movable electrons, those electrons can guide the wave, because the
first electron responds to the wave and generates a changing e-field,
which pushes on the next electron, and so on. When this occurs, the
original spreading ripple has been cancelled out, and it's replaced by
a ripple which is moving along the column of electrons.
Odd trivia: EM waves cannot travel through tiny holes in conductive
walls which are far smaller than the spacing between wave crests.
However, if an EM wave is being guided by the column of electrons
inside wire, then the wave can travel through a hole of any size.
(You can drill a hole in your microwave oven and no RF will leak
out. But don't ever stick a piece of metal coathanger into that
hole, or you'll get a painful surprise!)
The only way to create the fields and waves in the first place is to
drag charges along.
Back during a science museum exhibit project I gathered a stack of
textbooks and started collecting the electricity errors and
misconceptions being spread by the books. See http://amasci.com/miscon/elect.html
Since that time I've written a bunch of articles which "re-explains"
electricity from the ground up, with the common widespread
misconceptions removed. See: http://amasci.com/ele-edu.html
Note that these articles really need some diagrams, and even some
animations. Right now they're just all text.
((((((((((((((((((((((( ( ( (o) ) ) )))))))))))))))))))))))
William J. Beaty Research Engineer
beaty a chem washington edu UW Chem Dept, Bagley Hall RM74
billb a eskimo com Box 351700, Seattle, WA 98195-1700
ph206-762-3818 http://staff.washington.edu/wbeaty /
It's been a long time since I had basic engineering classes, so I jump
in here perhaps imprudently, but I think you have to open your physics
book to properly discuss this matter.
Anyway, an electric field moves the electrons (or ions), and that
movement of charge is commonly defined as electric current (I=Q/t).
But it's really about the electric field. For example, electrons move
very slowly in a wire, far below the large fraction of light speed at
which electrical energy travels down a wire, so clearly it's the
electric field that is being propagated that constitutes what
electricity 'really is', with the electrons merely being electric
This becomes more obvious when you consider electromagnetic radiation,
where the energy is transmitted entirely by the e-m fields themselves,
without any electron or ion carrier involved at all.
I could put up the equations for this if I remembered them, but its
been a while. I'm pretty sure they're still in those text books I
had, available for the idly curious.
Maybe there's someone watching this thread that is actually qualified
to discuss this properly (no not most of you). If so perhaps you
might enlighten us with the proper perspective on all this???
Although I detest the reliance upon electrons for describing circuit
behavior for the most part, the understanding of behavior can help
understand some processes. Note, the presumption of moving electrons in
a conductor IS UNNECESSARY TO determine CIRCUIT behavior in most cases.
Use v=-L*di/dt, i=C*dv/dt, and mv=i*R appropriately, and electrons will
have nothing to do with it.
If you must invoke electrons for religious motivations, then an electric
field is NOT necessary to keep electrons moving in a conductor. Electric
field is needed to ACCELERATE electrons. As their speed build up,
electrons will bump into lattice defects such as impurities,
dislocations and thermal vibrations (phonons). This causes the electrons
to give up energy and slow down. Electric field then accelerates
electrons again. These processes describe the source of resistance in
An old man would be better off never having been born.
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