Is there any way to plug a clothes dryer on the 220V oven plug?

On Fri, 14 Dec 2007 16:30:19 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.none (Beachcomber) wrote:


Or when you live someplace where a clotheline is not very useful, like most of North America above the 29th parallel right now.
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On 14 déc, 11:30, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.none (Beachcomber) wrote:

I really like my clothesline but I live in Montreal and winter is quite long. That's why I'm looking for a clothes drying solution.
Jacinthe
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

I've got one that runs on thermonuclear radiation. Quite economical.
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Paul Hovnanian mailto: snipped-for-privacy@Hovnanian.com
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The Op wants to know if he can use smaller current appliance on an existing circuit..
Of course you do that all the time with 110volt devices. Who ever heard of having a breaker rated to protect your clock radio. And it is the norm in 240volt 50 hz countries to plug in anything as long as it is not tooo big.
Unless this is not allowed by some obscure NEC provision in 240 volt USA installations Of course it is OK.
The breakers protect the wiring not the device. __ John G.
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On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 15:26:02 +1100, "John G"

It is the manufactirer's instructions that say coonnect to a 30a circuit, which makes it a NEC 110.3(B)
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wrote:

Does that mean you must blindly comply with some arbitrary figure dreamed up by the manufacturer or does it mean that is the minimum supply required? -- John G.
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On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 21:19:40 +1100, "John G"

It means the manufacturer has used conductors in the dryer that will trip a 30a breaker in a fault but might not trip a 50. At least U/L has not tested it that way. Certainly the OP can put a 50a plug on this dryer and it will work. You just don't know what happens if it gets a short inside.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com writes:

A possibly more interesting question: Suppose someone builds an adapter from a 50 A male plug to a 30 A female outlet *which includes a pair of 30 A fuses in the two hot legs*? Now the dryer wiring will be protected by the 30 A fuses. This is clearly safer than just using a 50 A plug and power cord. Is this legal? Is it as safe as using a circuit with a 30 A breaker?
(I assume the original poster doesn't want to change the breaker on this circuit to 30 A because they want to plug in the stove and dryer alternately, and they'd like the original 40 or 50 A for the stove).
    Dave
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Dave Martindale wrote:

Is it not possible to hard-wire both the stove and the drier into outlets with one locally fused at 30A - plus a changeover contactor/ switch in circuit to prevent both outlets being powered together?
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| snipped-for-privacy@aol.com writes: | |>It means the manufacturer has used conductors in the dryer that will |>trip a 30a breaker in a fault but might not trip a 50. At least U/L |>has not tested it that way. |>Certainly the OP can put a 50a plug on this dryer and it will work. |>You just don't know what happens if it gets a short inside. | | A possibly more interesting question: Suppose someone builds an adapter | from a 50 A male plug to a 30 A female outlet *which includes a pair of | 30 A fuses in the two hot legs*? Now the dryer wiring will be | protected by the 30 A fuses. This is clearly safer than just using a 50 A | plug and power cord. Is this legal? Is it as safe as using a circuit | with a 30 A breaker?
If they get it UL listed as a supplementary protector, it probably is perfectly legal.
| (I assume the original poster doesn't want to change the breaker on this | circuit to 30 A because they want to plug in the stove and dryer | alternately, and they'd like the original 40 or 50 A for the stove).
It's not the first time someone has wanted to do that.
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 20:19:23 +0000 (UTC), snipped-for-privacy@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:

That is certainly a viable alternative. You could use a fused disconnect like they sell for water heaters for a simple off the shelf answer.
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|
| wrote: |> |>>Unless this is not allowed by some obscure NEC provision in 240 volt |>>USA |>>installations Of course it is OK. |> |> |> It is the manufactirer's instructions that say coonnect to a 30a |> circuit, which makes it a NEC 110.3(B) | | Does that mean you must blindly comply with some arbitrary figure | dreamed up by the manufacturer or does it mean that is the minimum | supply required?
If they do in fact dream it up, or just roll dice to come up with it, then yes ... at least for insurance and legal purposes. If they tell you the device is safe on circuits rated up to 37.5 amps, and you had it on a 40 amp circuit, and it caused a fire that burned your house to the ground, don't expect any reimbursement from the manufacturer.
Normally, there is at least some level of engineering applied to come up with those figures.
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John G wrote:

It is not arbitrary. UL has tested the appliance and evaluated it for the protection specified by the manufacturer. By Code, if the fuse/breaker size is marked on the label, then you must comply with that. If it says to use a certain type of fuse, then other fuse types and circuit breakers are not acceptable. If it gives optional fuse & breaker ratings, then you have a choice of those.
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Correct. In the UK a ring main circuit (using 2.5mmsq cable) will normally have a 30A fuse or MCB in the consumer unit but appliances connected via a 13A fused plug (usual for all appliances except a cooker*) will have a fuse in the plug rated to the appliance and it's flex.
Stuart
*Cookers will normally be hard-wired via an isolating switch to a separate 30A supply and use 6mmsq cable
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That's likely to be country-specific. (It's true in the UK for breakers which are part of the installation, but I wouldn't make assumptions about elsewhere.)
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Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
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On 16 Dec 2007 14:03:27 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

That is not exactly true. In the US part of the listing is that a fault in the appliance will trip a beaker but it may not keep the appliance from being destroyed in the process. This is addressed in the sizes of "fixture wires" but they still may use smaller wire inside if the testing shows the resulting fire is totally contained in the appliance. In the case of a dryer you will find 14 and maybe even 16 gauge wire connected to the phase legs. I don't know if U/L evaluates these dryers with a decade of lint in the box
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North American appliances with a standard plug do have to be designed with the knowledge that a short in the power cord will have the current interrupted by a 15 A or 20 A breaker. Until the breaker trips, the current is limited by the series resistance of the 14 or 12 gauge wire feeding the outlet.
If you plug that cord into a 30 A circuit, you have half the series resistance, and double the breaker trip current, and you're more likely to have something arc or melt before the breaker trips.

In the UK, at least, there is a fuse in each plug. So the outlet may be capable of 13 A at 240 V, and fused appropriately, but a radio with a power cord can have small conductors because the plug is fused for 3 A. So there it is true that the breaker/fuse at the panel protects the wiring in the wall - because the appliance cord is protected by its own fuse. North America doesn't do that.
The dryer is expecting to be connected to a 30 A circuit, and to obtain some protection from that. It almost certainly doesn't have its own internal fuses.
    Dave
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|
| |> wrote: |> |>>Hi, |>>I was wondering if someone could help me. I have only one 220V plug |>>(for the oven) in my appartment and I would like to use an oven and a |>>clothes dryer. Would it be safe to plug the dryer on the oven plug? |>>Is there any adaptor I could use? |>>Thanks. |> The problem is your dryer needs 30a overcurrent protection and the |> oven circuit is probably 40 or 50a. | | | The Op wants to know if he can use smaller current appliance on an | existing circuit.. | | Of course you do that all the time with 110volt devices. Who ever heard | of having a breaker rated to protect your clock radio.
Breakers are rated to protect the building circuit. Appliances are then rated to be safe on circuits rated up to what they are permitted to be plugged in to.
| And it is the norm in 240volt 50 hz countries to plug in anything as | long as it is not tooo big.
That's the key ... not TOO big.
Circuits in the UK are typically 30 amp ring circuits. They also require fuses in the plugs. Plugging your clock radio into a 30 amp circuit is more risky than in a 20 amp circuit. The wire would have to be thicker to be equally safe, unless there is a fuse. The UK scheme, though quite inconvenient, is probably a lot safer, since you can, in theory, put in a 1/4 amp fuse for the clock (I don't know what the legal requirements actually are for that).
I know this is inconvenient because I have in fact dealt with fused plugs in the USA. At least at one time, line voltage Christmas light strings had these. I don't know if it was actually required, then, or not. But they did periodically blow for no apparent (at the time) reason. Maybe they were just on for too long at a time.
| Unless this is not allowed by some obscure NEC provision in 240 volt USA | installations Of course it is OK.
It depends on the actual appliance. All new appliances today need to be safe on a circuit protected at 20 amps. There are a number of ways to achieve that. Having every part rated to some percentage of that current level is one. Having parts that will ensure a higher current flow on a failure is another, provided that higher current flow is within the range that will trip the breaker. If the breaker is rated too high, it might not.
If your clock motor winding shorts out and starts pulling in 30 amps of current through the remaining part of the winding, is a 30 amp breaker expected to trip?
| The breakers protect the wiring not the device.
Yes.
But the device has to be rated for the available un-interrupted current, or provide its own supplemental protection.
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|

Thanks Phil. A much more informative post related to the original question.
Drum speed and economy was really off topic.
In Australia with 230 volts (often up to 250) normal General Purpose outlets are on a 16 amp breaker with some formula as to how many on each. Older installations often have hand wired fuses which can easily be abused. Then the appliance plug is by definition only to be up to 10 amps and there are no fuses at the plug or in simple appliances. There is a 15 amp variation of the GP plug which will only go in a 15 amp socket but the 10 amp plug will go there too.
Oh just a gloat for you Amaricans! 3phase 230/400 is available most anywhere except some distant rural properties supplied only with SWER. (Single wire earth return) at some high voltage and a local transformer to 240 v -- John G.
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| Thanks Phil. | A much more informative post related to the original question. | | Drum speed and economy was really off topic.
Technically, yes. I mentioned my interest and got challenged by some non-thinkers or people stuck in boxes. I always try to give a chance for someone to open their eyes and learn. But some people are just stuck and can't go beyond.
| In Australia with 230 volts (often up to 250) normal General Purpose | outlets are on a 16 amp breaker with some formula as to how many on | each. | Older installations often have hand wired fuses which can easily be | abused. | Then the appliance plug is by definition only to be up to 10 amps and | there are no fuses at the plug or in simple appliances. | There is a 15 amp variation of the GP plug which will only go in a 15 | amp socket but the 10 amp plug will go there too.
Sounds fine to me. The USA has 20 amp plugs and a 20/15 amp outlet that can do similar.
The various requirements about wire size and circuit limits have lots of wide tolerance factors built in. A 10 amp outlet is supposed to be able to handle that 10 amps continuously for as long as you want. It should be able to handle twice that for short periods of time. It will get hot. But something else should give before the outlet melts. So a slightly lesser cord and outlet could be OK due to the extra margins the the normal ratings. Well, that's at least how we do it in the USA.
| Oh just a gloat for you Amaricans! 3phase 230/400 is available most | anywhere except some distant rural properties supplied only with SWER. | (Single wire earth return) at some high voltage and a local transformer | to 240 v
Yeah, we have wimpy 120/208 for three phase, and even that's not readily available everywhere. Some places have 277/480. The higher voltage is more efficient. That's one of the reasons I try to promote it where I can, for the places and uses where it is safe to do. And our 240 volt circuits are 120 volts relative to ground, so there isn't as much reason to be concerned over safety as there would be if we adopted 230 volts as used in Aus/EU/UK/etc.
I'm looking at connecting computers to 240 volts. The power supplies do have 2 pole AC switching, so that end is OK (we need that because both wires are "hot" on 240 volts and users of Schuko need it because either wire can be "hot"). The catch I've run into is finding a suitable UPS. Those wired to handle the "two hots" are generally 5 kVA and up.
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