just how dangerous is the neutral wire?

Nevertheless, a GFCI can trip properly even with no ground wire connected to it. With no ground wire to the GFCI, taking the neutral downstream of the GFCI to a ground that leads back to the service panel will trip the GFCI.

So unless your idea of 'without a proper ground' means something completely different than having a ground wire installed on the green screw of the GFCI, your statement is wrong. They do *not* need a ground wire to function properly.

daestrom

wiring

shared

the

was

ground.

on

wire.

becomes

the

everything

ago).

normal

run

via

voltage

been eliminated

appliances and

quite dangerous

open). Old tube radios

frame/chassis. Lose a knob

for a surprise.

hazard due to

willing to touch the

concrete just

Like the man says...if individual neutral at the neutral bus is not connected well that neutral as you say will have current flow available to it as defined by ohms law and the resistance if the connected 'upstream' load..and it is dangerous.

IF the individual neutral is well connected BUT the neutral back to the transform is not well connected you have the same problem.

AND if there is an unbalanced load from from Line 1, 2 or 3 that flows into the neutral then that neutral will read

*current flow to its ground which as you know will be dangerous.

So why doesnt the NEC require the neutrals to be protected? Because it is not practically possible in these scenario's... the flows are too variable. and protecting individual neutrals would be entirely redundant.

So what does one do? He can choose to not put his tongue onto the neutral while standing in a puddle of water... that would work.

When you figure out how neutrals can be wired to always be in balance with multi phase feeds, or how to protect users from current in the neutrals as it varies let the NEC folks know you could get rich.

Currently thier practice though is to size the neutrals to the transformers sufficiently large to carry any possible imbalance or bolted dead short at full amperage long enough to trip the over current devices at the transformer or main breaker panel at the user end... but not to protect the user from current if he touches the neutral.

after all, there is no protection provide to the user if he touches one of the hot lines either... those breakers are there ONLY to protect the wiring to prevent a fire... its is totally insufficient to protect from most electrocutions that occur over a much longer time frame and lower amperage than the over current device rating.

Its the GFI that protects users... and those are available on the line side as you know... your question then is why not on the neutral?

I think that could be done actually...you would put a GFI on the neutral wired appropriately with a good bond to ground..have it operate a magnetic contactor in the service feed, and kill the main feeds if the there was a fault from the grounded neutral to ground.

Why dont they do that? Because electricity takes the path of least resistance and if the neutral is already bonded, you touching it even as it carries current will not take the entire potential to ground through your body because your body has more resistance that direct ground only a fraction of the potential, lets say 2% as a wild guess in most cases, will go through you.

If the flow through neutral is 40 amps, thats 2 amps... enough to fry your eyeballs if you touch your tongue to the neutral while standing in water.

So the lesson then is obvious. Neutrals are hazardous, just not real hazardous unless one does something stupid.

the NEC is not intended to protect from that problem as much as it is to prevent fires believe it or not...the NEC is part of the fire code...

Phil Scott

the electrical

associated with the

of the circuit.

are safer since

wire. My question

connect equipment

hazard, and as

disconnected, especially

are

in

wire

work on wiring

it helps keep me

require

shock

situations

The

is

circuit.

is

through

is

are

where

are

multi-wire

deenergized. It

return to the panel

cannot see how a

shared with

made this way.

house you run a

detached

powering

connected to

Someone is

garage. How

I think the

garage subpanel

whatever wire

that voltage at

Tell me how

worry about,

used to be done.

-----------------

-----------------

"John Gilmer" wrote in

neutral and you just

spek for yourself white man...I tttouuch hott allll the time.

The "ground" pin

still have "ground"

converter isn't

toasters and mixers

exists if the

path to ground.

the neutral

Thats because the neutral IS grounded a the transformer..so its a ground also to that extent...even though it can carry significant actual power, that power is on a wire dead nuts bolted to the utility company GROUND... so what flows through YOU will be a direct and hard core mathematical function of the your bodys resistance and the resistance in the contact between your body and ground (say zero if you standing salt water on a cement floor_...and the resistance in the neutral cable going to the utility company's grounding grid...which is typically a thousandths of your body resistance.

I dont have the time to run those calcs for you but someone else will. But yes you could still be hurt if there is a significant unbalanced ground and say the utility company neutral is poorly connected at any point.

Making the juice inherently safe will never happen. same with red heads, fast cars and liquor.

Phil Scott

washing machine

lamp holder and

soap/water covered

"backward

margin for wiring

oversized neutrals and

hots.

Edison system.

voltages then you

voltages. In the

be broken and then

it to get

people are not

something can

it's only

GROUNDED objects are more

"neutral" permitted to

impossible for all paths

it to get

-----------------

-----------------

"John Gilmer" wrote in

volt "transistor"

you just resign yourself to sudden death at any turn and then its not a problem.

"HorneTD" wrote

candidate.

Yes yes...I see you have mentioned the awards..but have not provide a link. Many people are not familiar with this organization and could benefit with application information.

Have the published this years winners yet?

Phil Scott

disconnects

control a

is not cheap.

tragedy.

Not actually...unless the neutral ground faults..and in that case the GFI will kill the load if there is a short to some other ground.

Phil Scott

-----------------

-----------------

>

"SQLit" wrote in

I

life is worth

That depends on how much taxes you pay, good going if you are over 10 bucks....for us retirees the govt will be better off if we just fry.

Phil Scott

apart just for fun to

improper

disconnected the

"hot" white wires.

result in a HOT

failure mode do you

current carrying

condition come from?

to a light between

up carrying

with black marker

panel.

The problem is most likely not a hot neutral but in your measurement of the neutral... if you pull a neutral off of its bus, and with the load and breaker in that ciruit on, but not running of course because you have disconnected the neutral the neutral WILL read line voltage to ground...or the neutral bus. It just will not pass a lot of current due to the fact that its connected to the neutral side of the load and that load when engaged offers enough resistance to lower the voltage under load enough so that when its connected to neutral its under 5 volts or so *ymmv according to how insanely the place may have been wired.

Phil Scott

demonstrated

indication

that does open

are not GFCI).

I am rusty on that code but I think the neutral has to be broken with the line power on gas pumps...i could be wrong on that though. It is in the NEC though.

I think its to prevent any small amount of arcing that could cause an explosion... not because the there is typcially enough current to ground through a human to cause any real damage... and..

. Damage in that case is *also a function of how much tax the guy pays...if he is in the american middle class...thats a LOT...we need protection in that case...

but if its just some low rider, or retired person pumping gas that *don't pay any taxes we can let those fry with no actual harm.

Your problem is that you are not considering ACTUAL value..only the nebulious issues related to human life with NO consideration for governments needs.

Phil Scott '

-----------------

-----------------

these in new or

neutral first and

costs and more

and still

one wire

The neutral and ground are not really wires... they are just made to look like wires... with copper in the middle and that non colored or fake green colored covering.

real wires have real colors. Red for instance, or Black..or Brown even those are real colors... I have also tried orange..thats a real wire. But purple I think might be only good on 'some' circuits if you know what I mean.

to prove this go to yer power panel and find the spot where all the fake wires go.. thats white and green and then attach an extension cord between the white and green and see if that runs your mix master.

IT WONT... thats because those are NOT *real wires...

I hope that helps.

Charles EE Peeevie

-----------------

-----------------

An open neutral can carry a voltage at a considerable current.

If the neutral is on a 120V/240V circuit, and the "other side" has a device connected, that open neutral will assume a voltage equal to that of the other side hot wire, (120V). The ammount of current that can be drawn is dependant on the resistance of the "other side" load.

its

not

neutral

neutral

fact

that

current.

Of course... I thought I had made that point obvious.

side" has a

equal to that

that can be

load.

Well, I have heard the sotries of the "old timers" who would quitely touch a "hot" wire and determine the voltage and PHASE!

quitely touch a

Nahhh... you could pick out the stinger that way..but I dont think eyeball spin alone would not give you phase on pure voltage... how is that done. Do you use the apprentice at all?

I myself after using a meter, and sometimes if there is not one in my ass pocket at the time, will kill the circuit then test for live ones with my finger...but I try to make sure my cigar is out at the time.

Phil Scott

John Gilmer wrote: "Well, I have heard the sotries of the "old timers" who would quitely touch a "hot" wire and determine the voltage and PHASE!"

BULLSHIT!!!

"old timers" who would quitely touch a

Not bullshit... I dont go after trying to find a stinger that way but no doubt some have... I have routinely gone after hot wire in a bundle by first making sure my feet are dry and that one hand is in my back pocket then NOT touching the hot wire straight on, but brushing past it, touching it that way, in a sweeping motion. that provides the momentum to take your hand past the contact before the nervous system can be frozen holding you in contact.

Ive seen many people do that... the last final check before plunging hard core with solid contact into a potentially hot area... I DO NOT do it close to the mains...or on anything over 240 volts however.

Id bet at least half the techs posting the NG have done this.

Phil Scott

In an improperly wired system, or one with defects, any wire could be lethal.

In a properly wired system, the max voltage drop would be

5 percent or less - half of which would be in the neutral. So using nominal 120 volts, you would have a maximum of 3 volts with respect to ground on the neutral wire.

3 volts to ground from the neutral is not dangerous to you. But a neutral wire should be considered dangerous if you can touch it, because you don't know if the system is properly wired or if it is defect free.

Ed

daestrom: other than the green screw from the metal installation parts on the GFCI what else is proper ground to you ?

The fact is that a GFCI with the Hot and Neutral alone, but No Proper Equipment Ground 9from a conductor on the green screw to ground buss or from a Grounded or Bonded Box/Conduit (as when a 2 conductor non-metalic flexible cable is employed) The GFCI won't trip on test or a fault....

Try It }:-)

The reason I mentioned this is because: People could feel erroneously safe if they wired up a GFCI to a non-grounded 2 conductor circuit.

In all the discussions about this everyones mentioned Resistance or Ohms., no one has mentioned Conductivity nor the role it plays in Safety Vs Hazards ..... };-

Lots of Stray Voltage cases have been emerging in NYC., Last year a woman was killled by a " Hot Spot " in a street side situation, this week several Dogs were injured in different spots in the city (shown on the 6 o'clock news)..... ConEd reported Salt from Street Conditioning for Snow Abatement had got in and corroded some cables., other spots are under investigation ~>

my opinion: perhaps the shocks occured from wet ice/snow/water patches that had closed a path from the compromised cable chambers to the surface and with the dampness all over the streets the dogs were the first to Yelp and denounce the Hazard. [Mans Best Friend lives, Thank G_d]

nearby my place The Authorities Taped off an entire Corner Manhole no notice or warning was posted. I put 2 n 2 together.