just how dangerous is the neutral wire?

I am convinced the GFCI works well with any potential difference with respect to the Neutral side of the circuit.,and that the gfi tester works from the ground side of the circuit. nevertheless I don't think I'll be installing any gfi's without a ground present as safe as it may be., it's a matter of habit, plus one could charge extra for fixing the no-ground condition., which in itself is outdated, a hazardous and a code violation.

BTW: the house i installed the last one in had a reading of 116vac. the entire neighborhood has an overhead wire system with poles, I think ConEd keeps it down for a reason.I may do some more work there in the near future.

=AEoy

If a two wire circuit exists in a bathroom or a kitchen, you should install a GFCI, even without the grounding conductor. An existing two-wire circuit is not a code violation.

No. ConEd does not keep it down for a reason. Good grief. Do you even read what you write before you post it?

Charles Perry P.E.

Sun, Mar 6, 2005, 9:22pm (EST+5) From: snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net

OKAy but i've never come across a 2 wire job that wasn't grounded.

who are you Charlie Brown ? }:-) Look.,

I have 120 vac & I'm 2 blocks away with an UG system.They (ConEd) don't seem too interested in upgrading those particular sectors of the community so they are not letting the best juice from the network through to them., mostly old private houses, probably flooded with DOB violations.

=AEoy

on

having any

that part.

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They DO GFCI protect the hot wires in gas station...but the neutral is shared, and depending on its resistance to ground, it still carrys a small voltage..enough to create a small spark to ground...it gets that voltage for an circuit that was NOT interupted. Thats why I think they also break the neutral when any GFCI opens.

Phil Scott

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And if..... the house would burn down killing anyone that didn't get out in time.

Now we have GFCI's, 'dangerous neutrals', feeding a hot tub, fed by a sub-panel, supplying another independent load', with the hot-tub user getting into the hot tub's wiring, while sitting in the tub, with "a HOT leader from another circuit crossing the neutral".

Why would you even *have* a separate hot in the same pathway as GFCI protected receptacles? How shody does the wiring have to be to have bare wire 'hot' come in contact with bare wire 'neutral' of a separate circuit?

What kind of Rube Goldberg notion comes next?

Imagination I have, but tempered with some common sense. Going to ask the NEC to add code to protect us from stray static charges from my cat next?

Yes, all sorts of crazy things are *possible*, but are we going to petition the NEC for protection against each and every conceivable combination? These aren't nuclear weapon systems, they're homes. If each of these problems that people dream up were to cost $500 to fix, no-one could afford a new home.

daestrom

Gee, if 'open or flaky neutral up stream', then none of those 'large 120 volt load's will work very well. So the homeowner ignores these signs of a faulty wiring problem? Of course some probably would, but we can't codify common sense (although I know a legislator that would like to try ;-)

Why stop there? Why not install isolation transformers for every load in every room? Or just design a home without any electricity at all? You could go back to keresene lamps and heaters, then there wouldn't be any electrical needs or risk of electrocution at all? Of course you could suffer from CO poisoning, or fire, but at least you would be safe from 'hazardous neutrals'. Of course, you *could* just go live in a cave...

Point is, living is a risk. Better to weigh the cost/benefits of excluding/reducing each risk and spend your money where it does the most good. Exercise, eat right, don't DWI, don't smoke. But 'hazardous neutral'?? Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Better to run a 'fire drill' for your family once a year and have an emergency plan with some emergency supplies.

daestrom

| I have 120 vac & I'm 2 blocks away with an UG system.They (ConEd) don't | seem too interested in upgrading those particular sectors of the | community so they are not letting the best juice from the network | through to them., mostly old private houses, probably flooded with DOB | violations.

Maybe they have an older transformer with a different tap and no one cares enough to press the issue. My computer would work fine on 116 volts, so why should I care.

| Where, in a code installation, can a person contact a neutral conductor? | Exactly the same places one can contact a phase conductor! And if you start | "what ifs" about non-code installations, what effect will changes to the | code bring about?

The fact that there _are_ ways to contact a phase conductor is why the GFCI is needed in certain locations, anyway. Considering the requirement relates to wet situations, I suggest that is a clue as to the means by which such contact can happen.

|> | How can you get 'upwards of 120 volts on the neutral' if the hot lead is |> | opened by the GFCI? The original question was whether all GFCI's should |> | open the hot *and* neutral, whereas some breaker-style GFCI's only open |> the |> | 'hot'. |>

|> Open (or flaky) neutral up stream. Some large 120 volt load (motor) on |> the same branch sharing the neutral (like in a subpanel). | | Gee, if 'open or flaky neutral up stream', then none of those 'large 120 | volt load's will work very well. So the homeowner ignores these signs of a | faulty wiring problem? Of course some probably would, but we can't codify | common sense (although I know a legislator that would like to try ;-)

I've seen situations where an open neutral goes unnoticed for months. In a house we rented, I one day noticed that a light at the bar next to the kitchen was changing brightness. But I never connected why. Later I was cooking some food and my other told me not to use the back burner. Why? Because it was dead. Still a few days later we were talking about it and then she raised the point that the light on the bar was going up and down with the burner setting. That's when I knew something was very wrong. It took a bit of convincing to get my parent to believe that it was imminently dangerous. But they were not going to believe a kid in junion high school over the fact that it has worked fine that way for the past 2 months. Eventually I one and an electrician was called in by the landlord. There was enough burn damage in the fuse box that he had to replace it. That's when he found the bar light was improperly tapped from the stove circuit. The open neutral was on the stove circuit itself, so the rest of the house didn't see it. But he did say it was arcing, so it was a very real fire hazard that could have become serious at any time in those 2 months. Usually I didn't hang around the kitchen when mom was cooking food, but I was sick that day and didn't go out as usual. That could have saved my life, being sick.

| Why stop there? Why not install isolation transformers for every load in | every room? Or just design a home without any electricity at all? You | could go back to keresene lamps and heaters, then there wouldn't be any | electrical needs or risk of electrocution at all? Of course you could | suffer from CO poisoning, or fire, but at least you would be safe from | 'hazardous neutrals'. Of course, you *could* just go live in a cave...

I don't think the 2-wire loads need one.

| Point is, living is a risk. Better to weigh the cost/benefits of | excluding/reducing each risk and spend your money where it does the most | good. Exercise, eat right, don't DWI, don't smoke. But 'hazardous | neutral'?? Not enough 'bang for the buck'. Better to run a 'fire drill' | for your family once a year and have an emergency plan with some emergency | supplies.

But I think I should be able to mitigate the risks that I can. Having a disconnect of the neutral by a GFCI device, I think, mitigates things more than not. I'm already going to have a neutral disconnect on the main in the house I'll be building. A three phase breaker should do that fine as they have to disconnect all 3 conductors simultaneously. 4-pole breakers are available, too, but I don't think I need one of those.

| They DO GFCI protect the hot wires in gas station...but the | neutral is shared, and depending on its resistance to ground, | it still carrys a small voltage..enough to create a small | spark to ground...it gets that voltage for an circuit that was | NOT interupted. Thats why I think they also break the | neutral when any GFCI opens.

The breakers used there are not GFCI. They are regular OCPD with a 2nd or 3rd pole for the neutral. If you can find a combo SWN+GFCI breaker for 2-pole 240 volt circuits in QO or CH panels, I'm definitely interested. That would be 3 pole spaces, the 3rd on the pigtail.

| It's not unusual for some kind of network be placed between BOTH sides of | the power connectoin and the chassis (local ground). The network is oven a | relatively high value resistor and a small cap. For RF purposes, you radio | uses "ground" and both supply wires. If the resistors aren't big enough or | the caps no small enough then it can cause enough current to flow to be a | detectable ground fault. Since the "neutral" GF detection often uses | double line frequency sensing (it injects a signal) the caps in the network | will pass more juice.

Couldn't you just parallel a low resistor with a rectifier and high resistor combination? Then when you have a fault, look for the 120 Hz flow?

You must have a different sort of electricity to me. Why do you think it would stay at some instantaneous voltage that you measured. It will go up and down several volts in the course of a day and even over shorter times will vary quite a bit.

JG: Gimme a break

I just tested mine again, it read 121 on my Fluke ts-600 & 121.1 on my BK precision.

My circuits are All New here.... & we have a Brand New Line Conditioner/Monitor in the street level here.

don't you know wot's not a word. so, can it ! I'm not coming back to this.

RQT

A new circuit, or an old one for that matter, does not necessarily effect the voltage level.

Line conditioner/monitor? What make/model?

Charles Perry P.E.

Line

necessarily effect

Sunbeam . Mod. 56HB120cv4000D-60hz

You are going to use a standard 3 phase breaker to open the neutral? So are you going to use a phase bus as the neutral? Would the inspector or UL appreciate that? It is entirely possible that the neutral could open momentarily before the hots using a 3 phase breaker. Would your equipment, especially electronic, withstand the glitch?

Bud--

|> | I have 120 vac & I'm 2 blocks away with an UG system.They (ConEd) |> don't |> | seem too interested in upgrading those particular sectors of the |> | community so they are not letting the best juice from the network |> | through to them., mostly old private houses, probably flooded with |> DOB |> | violations. |>

|> Maybe they have an older transformer with a different tap and no one |> cares enough to press the issue. My computer would work fine on 116 |> volts, so why should I care. |>

|> -- |> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- |> | Phil Howard KA9WGN |

Yeah, I've noticed it does go up an down. Hell, it even goes negative half the time. And it's quite frequent, too. I guess the power company doesn't want me to keep their electricity for very long, so they suck it back 60 times a second.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:35:23 -0600 Bud wrote: | snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: | | |> |> But I think I should be able to mitigate the risks that I can. Having a |> disconnect of the neutral by a GFCI device, I think, mitigates things more |> than not. I'm already going to have a neutral disconnect on the main in |> the house I'll be building. A three phase breaker should do that fine as |> they have to disconnect all 3 conductors simultaneously. 4-pole breakers |> are available, too, but I don't think I need one of those. |> | You are going to use a standard 3 phase breaker to open the neutral? So | are you going to use a phase bus as the neutral? Would the inspector or | UL appreciate that?

In case you were not aware, the code actually _requires_ the neutral to be disconnected in certain cases, such as when transferring power between two sources where the neutral and ground are already bonded upstream. Three pole breakers, with an interlock to prevent simultaneous closure, is a common means to do the transfer. Four pole breakers would be used for three phase power. If you just ran the neutral between both sources straight through, you'd end up with neutral currents flowing on the ground wires of both source feeds.

| It is entirely possible that the neutral could open momentarily before | the hots using a 3 phase breaker. Would your equipment, especially | electronic, withstand the glitch?

No more or less so than if the breaker used in a transfer switch were to trip.

And I'll be running my computers on 240 volts, anyway. Anything else I can get onto straight balanced 240 I will.