just how dangerous is the neutral wire?

in article snipped-for-privacy@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net, Roy Q.T. at snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net wrote on 3/1/05 8:48 PM:

Now I know why you are having trouble getting employment! Without a ground, a GFIC device is difficult to test. But rest assured that if the GFIC is working properly, it will trip on a fault between hot and ground even with no ground connection.

As you say, do your own test. Take a GFIC without a ground connection and run a 15K resistor between hot and a ground somewhere else. The ground on some other properly wired three prong outlet will do very nicely.

Bill

You don't use any kind of resistor on a GFCI installation., you're just cruisin.

now I know why i don't work for guys like you ;-)

The Equipment Ground at the Box, as I stated, is sufficient ground " If " it is present., Otherwise: I still say it Won't Function Properly ... and I am not putting a 15K Ohm resistor on any Installation without a ground. , i'd just wire it all up new with the 3rd wire from a Proper Ground.

FURTHERMORE: if you look at the schematic at the above page everyones been Rifleing through, you'll see the Earth Ground., Not the Neutral mistakenly called Ground from the Line Side is the Detecting and Safety Ground not a weaker Resisted Neutral Signal.

AGREE: The Short or Ground Fault Needs to be to Earth/Ground or it won't work it's magic.

Bill your Nutz:

Place 15K ohms from a GFCI Hot to Ground ??? Wouldn't that be applying A Ground ???

Good grief! You have gone off the deep end this time. A GFCI outlet WILL trip for a fault even when no ground conductor is in place! I suggest you do a little Googling on the subject. If you can find something from Mike Holt, that would be good. He is pretty much considered an expert in all things NEC related, including GFCI and the new Arc Fault detectors.

After you find out you are wrong (and you most certainly are wrong), perhaps you should seriously consider a different line of work.

Charles Perry P.E.

Here, I will provide you the first link for free:

(12-30-99) I suggest you have someone who understands electricity read it to you.

Charles Perry P.E.

Okay so you keep on installing GFCI's without a ground like you suggest, I'll keep doing it my way Properly Grounded & with Care.

Not to mention; you must a good P.E. Charles., " IN HELL " where P.E. probably stands for Personally Erroneous.

You're arrogant comments & analytical approach Lack Respect and Professional Consideration.

I've checked out Mike Holt before, he's the Mickey Mouse of the Electrical Trade.

Not related to Holt Electrical Supply that Served The Electrical Trade in NYC for decades with Lots of Respect & Little Arrogance or Deviciveness.

Roy

Hahahaha. Professional Consideration! You gave up an right to that a few dozen posts ago. Your lack of electrical knowledge is frightening and your refusal to learn from your mistakes is sad.

The fact is, you are wrong. A GFCI will work on a two wire circuit. You stated that it would not.

Charles Perry P.E.

If he is Mickey Mouse, what are you? Attacking people whose credentials, and demonstrated knowledge, far exceed your own does not make you look any more knowledgable.

Charles Perry P.E.

That Code Check website is very cool indeed.I've bookmarked it for future reference.

Thanks

Roy

Charles wrote: snip ~<

all that arrogant self indulgence

If the neutral conductor has a resistance of 0.1 ohms, that would mean a person with a body resistance of about 5 ohms? Maybe direct across the heart of an open chest during surgery, but even sweating and standing in saltwater would be higher than that. One old rule was the very *worst* body resistance (on hands & knees in seawater) would be 300 ohms.

No, I don't think so. A properly sized/connected neutral with 40 amps would develop about 3 to 5 volts drop in it. Do you really think 5 volts will induce 2 amps flow through a person??

Of course at some levels, *all* electrical wiring is hazardous. But is the hazard of a neutral being ~5 volts above ground warrant a lot of extra protective gear (special disconnecting switches, fast-operating shunt trip relays and such)?

Hence the reason it is published by NFPA. Yet they *do* step into the realm of personal protection with GFCI's and equipment grounding conductors, these have no other purpose than personel safety.

daestrom

Have, many times. I have a GFCI receptacle with *no* ground wire. The test button causes it to trip every time. The test button connects a 15k resistor from load side of 'hot' to line side of 'neutral'. The resulting current through the hot wire as it passes through the sensing core trips it every time. (so far).

GFCI breakers installed in a service panel have the circuit's hot and neutral wired to the GFCI terminals. Then a 'pigtail' from the GFCI goes to the neutral bus. Yet *NO* wire connects the molded plastic case of the GFCI or any internal circuitry to ground. They work fine even in sub-panels where the neutral bus is isolated from the ground bus.

Evidently you haven't taken the time to see how the things work. They do

*not* need a ground wire connected to the green screw to trip. Try it yourself sometime. I have.

Here are a couple of links, note carefully how the 'test' button is connected...

(scroll to over halfway to see 'typical application' schematic) (scroll past first set of schematics to one labeled "Neutral Ground Fault Detection") Also check out the NEC code that explicitly mentions using GFCI's, *without an EGC* to feed a series of *three-pronged* outlets without EGC. This will meet code requirements if the downstream receptacles are properly labeled.

daestrom

Yet, he understands how GFCI's work and you don't. So where does that place you??

Can you even 'read' a schematic diagram well enough to see how the 'test' button in a GFCI is connected? Can you trace the current flow from the load side of the hot wire and back to the line side of the neutral wire, bypassing the sensing transformer on the return? See how the transformer has current flowing one way through it on the hot wire, and no current flowing the opposite direction through it on the neutral wire? Can you see how the hot wire current is *not* canceled by any corresponding neutral current so the electronics sense an imbalance and trip the unit? Notice that at no time did we have to discuss any connection to the grounding terminal to make the thing trip??

daestrom

Hahaha. The GFCI will function properly on a two wire circuit. The test circuit does not involve the grounding conductor and the function during a fault does not depend on a grounding conductor. Installing a GFCI receptacle on a two wire circuit is also accepted by the Code. So exactly what code violation are you referring to now? As with any installation of a three prong outlet on a two wire circuit, you have to label the receptacle stating that there is no grounding conductor.

Are we using word too large for you to understand? This is not the first time you have been proven utterly wrong on an electrical discussion in this group. You would think you would get used to it.

I actually make part of my money going behind fly-by-nighters like yourself and recommending fixes for customers who are having fits with the function of their electrical equipment. You keep working and you will keep someone in business fixing your messes.

Charles Perry P.E.

I understand how GFCI's work and I know how to install them. I've never wired one into a non-grounded outlet box or circuit.

Recently I had tried one off the outletbox., It Wouldn't Trip nor Reset without the ground from the outlet box. So, I figured it doesn't work properly 100% without the ground.

I've got a good sense of humor, but you guys here take the cake.

I thought i was a good tuff tech, you guyz are a hard bunch of hardcore engineering bastards. my eyes are very humid here.

To Top Things Off, I'm installing one friday in this sweet old ladies kitchen that needs one.

Later

in article aBsVd.35139$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyroc.rr.com, daestrom at daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com wrote on 3/2/05 4:09 PM:

Thanks. I forgot that. The testing of the imbalance detection does not have to be done to ground but just in a manner that produces a net current through the toroid (current transformer).

It is rather obvious, however, that Roy Q.T. never momentarily connected a

15K resistor from a two wire GFCI hot terminal to a ground somewhere else.

Bill

Pity...

What make and model? If you wire the line side and push the trip button and it doesn't trip, there are two possibilities. Either you forgot to turn on the circuit before testing it (not wise when the thing is just dangling from the wires in mid air), or it is defective. (okay, a third possibility is it isn't a UL approved GFCI receptacle).

If it won't reset, then it must be defective. With the power off, any UL approved GFCI can be reset.

daestrom

It was brand new out of the box i tell you I had just finished attaching the wires, for the heck of it I switched the breaker it was dead across the load side so I tested the reset/test button with it dangling from the wires. It didn't reset or trip until i touched it to ground on the load side receptacle.

I had 2 in line, 1 GFCI, 1 15A over the kitchen sink & to a refridgerator.

I may have to go back to that location for some follow up work in the LR I'll retest this acconticement and write about why it may have happened thus.

maybe I was too high on helping others to remember just exactly what happened, but i solemly remember the circuit interuptor not testing for the trip without it being on the box/ground.

oh & my receptacle/gfci tester indicated an open ground of course.

=AEoy