UK Electrical Transmission System

You are looking for very sensitive information that should be unavailable, as disclosure would pose a security risk. Don't hold your breath!

Regards. Chris Johnston

Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:34:54 +0000 (UTC), "Grey" wrote:

No reason for it most of it to be sensitive- much of it is in textbooks or IEE journals and terrorists can surely recognise a major substation when they see it. I would suggest that Grahame ask the utility directly and would likely get more information than he can digest. .

or

Transmission Voltages are normally 132, 275 or 400 kV.

Distribution is normally at 11, 33 or 66 kV. 22kV. is sometimes used, but not often; it is more common in mainland Europe.

There is a dc cable between Britain and France, I think it's still in use, but I can't remember the Voltage.

I don't know about the other stuff.

One source mentioned 200KV.

I also found one note that said it wasn't in operation (at least the

1961-era ABB system).

A lovely map, but not the sort of thing that should be readily available in today's climate. US utilities no longer make this sort of detail available, for obvious security reasons.

Regards to all, Chris Johnston

I seem to remember that the original cable was replaced by a new one at some point, but I don't know for certain if that one is still in use.

Since the generators list their sites in their 10-Ks, and figuring out where the big loads are doesn't require a rocket scientist, it wouldn't require a very high IQ to figure out where the lines would need to go.

Also, the UK has been dealing with "today's climate" for decades. They haven't had any single event on the scale of 9/11 but they've had a plethora of smaller ones.

More like "obvious paranoia reasons."

Terrorists don't usually go after power lines. Terrorists don't like power lines. Power lines don't bleed. On the other hand, terrorists like blood and mayhem. Blood and mayhem on the TV results in people being scared to death. But when you get people who get paid the big bucks to daydream everything that can go wrong, they think terrorists might go after power lines. IMHO, most of them are remembering their childhood days getting kicks out of building up block towers and knocking them over.

You'll get much more TV-attracting blood and mayhem by highjacking a gasoline truck and smashing it into any location with a lot of people, for example: The World Headquarters of Amalgamated Widgets Corporation The First National Bank Of Any Medium-Sized American City Naughty Brats Middle School

Hey its not my fault you live in a paranoid country.

How can you judge what the UK can or cannot put into the public domain?

It's that sort of attitude that has got the US into the state into which it finds itself today.

Or are you embarrassed because you told the original poster "don't hold your breath"?

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BTW you can see similar info on the us grid on page 12 of this pdf file!

Big thanks for all this info. Most useful.

No thanks to those people who think my surname must be "Bin Laden".

Graham

It certainly is. Political climate in UK prevents building any more nuclear power stations, so the French build them for us all along their North coast, and we buy the electricity from them.

It was originally installed mainly for the UK to sell electricity to France, but has actually used almost entirely the other way around.

Actually, to borrow a phrase, we "see our own image in a darkened mirror."

When we attacked Baghdad, one of our priority goals was to bomb the power infrastructure to the point it doesn't work but it can be fixed easily enough. Much to Jeff Immelt's happiness, with genuine GE stuff. After all, ABB wasn't part of the Coalition of the Willing.

The "lovely map" is semi-interesting but it's not that useful if you were wanting to go after a power line.

Investor-owned utilities have these strange habits. They tell their owners where the power plants are. Not only that, they tell the SEC where they are. You file, the SEC tells. Knowing that data, anyone can figure out where one end of the "lovely lines" on the "lovely map" are located.

Well, it took me just a few seconds to Google some fascinating "lovely maps" from our side of the pond, brought to all by Our Federal (USA) Tax Dollars At Work:

Power lines don't automagically appear out of thin air, at least not around here. US utilities have to go through extensive PUBLIC review to get them, for obvious public policy reasons.

Cities, counties, Public Utility Commissions, etc., are very reluctant to go into closed session as the voters will be at their throats.

No not when anyone disagrees with me, just when they make assumptions without checking the facts out.

If any one was that intent, they could buy Ordinance Survey maps of any area to find such detail

I thought it was 22kV in UK and 20kV in mainland Europe although I think there is some 20kV in Yorkshire.

I think the reason that 22kV was selected is that it was the highest voltage (at that time) that a belted paper insulated cable could be designed for. Such cables failed at 33kV and were successful only when filled with oil or dry nitrogen. These 22kV cables would have been originally for subtransmission rather than 'final' high voltage distribution.

Trying to hide such information about things that are in plain site is a waste of time. Might as well try to hide a cooling tower that's visible from 10 miles away.

Buy a topographical map (available many places) and it shows power lines and substations. Download a satellite photo and you can pick out the power lines. Drive around in your car on the week ends and you'll stumble across them.

Terrorists are not stupid. If they want to find information about power lines or substations, there are easily half a dozen sources they could use to find it. Paranoia about reporting 'suspicious' activity in recreational marinas, 'hiding' information about things that are in plain site, it's all got to stop. The more paranoid we act, the more the terrorists win.

daestrom

WHen Iw as working for a REC about 15 years ago there was a bit of a problem from the society for the two headed sheep ( somthin like that anyway) They tried to disrupt the UK electical network by cutting down a 400kV tower near to Dungeness. 25 hacksaw blades later and they left exhauseted!!! BUt the point is that despite the fact that power is an easy target there is not much evidence worldwide that this is a potential target. Unless they took out a lot of circuits they would not have much effect. Crash a few lorrieson the M25 and M1 is a whole lot easier to get top ratings in the press!

It dosnt need us to say how easys or hard it is to disrupt the systems. But its got to be more that a man with a gun or a hacksaw to have any worthwhile effect. The evidence is clear its not done a lot! I think we are a bit lucky as it is fairly easy to do but would not get much headline news unless it was a big concerted effort.

Cable laying contractors and builders ahev a far more likely chance of making thigns happen!

As for the network diagram then it is available in the public domain ( the transmisison entwork is even on the OS maps and it is fairly easy to walk routes to see where the towers go and the cables start and end. There is not a lot of 400KV underground and not too much 132kV although there is a lot around city centres

Vltages inthe UK are

400kV 275 usually to 400kV spec

132

66kV ( not a lot but some older stuff)

33kV the main distribution voltage

22kV not a lot again a legacy system

11kV the most prolific

6.6 quite a bit ( often out of phase with itself) 3.5/ 2/ 2.2 and other odd bits then the final is 415 (ish) and 240 (ish)

I saw the last DC rectifier in use int he South East when I started my training in 1972 so I doubt if there is much of that left now!!!!

Same random not too accurate summaries! These are sumamries so dont pick me up on them if they are incomplete but if I have it wrong then 20 years of lecturing has gone out the woindow!!!!!

The DC link is 2 dc circuits that allow power flow (cant remember the voltage) (france to the UK nrormally ) of around 2GW MD its DC to help avoid voltage control problems and help to tie the two systems together without having them have to haev the same frequency. It also limits fault current flow.

voltage control is acheived by generators and static and rotating compensators etc to provide the VAR control and tap changers manage the final delivery of voltage.

cables and lines each have a different effect on voltage control

Bored now so going to bed!

As a Power engineer on Standby and still operational I have read the last several posts with much merriement.

Sniper?? seen it. Usually a little brat with an air rifle making sparks....

Chain Man.. thrown over the line

Fire man.

Under the cable boxes in the substations

all guarenteed to switch of a large area for several hours!!!

have fun!!!!

PS

the two headed sheep shagger society is still in operation!!!!!